Why are you not at Wall Street?

[Gerken]

Calling people child is hilarious when you can't even figure out how to post properly while using quotes.

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[LoupGaroux]

And that's because using the quote button is related to a perceived ad hominem attack how?

Thanks for pointing it out, I fixed it. What would the interwebz be without the Simple Machines Police? How would we communicate?

[rainingbitcoins]

Okay nevermind, you can't be real.

It was a good troll, though. Had me going for a while there.

[Rarity]

is it an oppurtunity (sic) when you want to impose your will and belief system on others? Regardless of how noble it might feel to you, it is slavery when you compel the actions of others through your actions. Forgive me for not wanting to be a slave to your vision.

I won't be imposing anything, the people themselves will demand change.  Imposition is forcing someone to work a job they hate or be unable to seek medical treatment.  Freedom is allowing people to choose how best to live their own lives.

[LoupGaroux]

Is it still freedom when those people decide to help themselves without limit to your labor, your goods and your property? Who wants to make them work at a job they hate? I don't want to compel anybody, but you seem to want to have people work for you, and to produce per your direction to be distributed per your scheme of (gasp!) wealth redistribution. Go ahead and change jobs, go with my strongest encouragement, find your muse and dance to her music every waking moment of your life. Who said anything about making people unable to seek medical treatment? Go to any doctor you want, have any elective surgery you want, get the splinter taken out of your eye whenever you want and receive the service in the language of your choice. I just don't think your freedom permits you to require the doctor to do it according to your rules. Find a doctor that accepts your rules, your health insurance and your options for paying him for his or her expertise, training and talents, and get yourself a whole bucket full of great health care. What I object to is your belief that you should determine who the doctors will be where they will serve, what options they can offer to their patients, what they will earn for the work, and how much of it they shall be compelled to produce.

Your definition of freedom is selfish at the point that your freedom imposes its will on mine. Why should I or anyone else be required/forced/compelled/obligated to perform for your amusement or desire? Why should you enjoy the fruits of my labor just because you call it something warm and fuzzy like freedom. That freedom abrogates mine, and as such is self defeating and contradictory. You are stating that what is good for you shall be. That ain't freedom. That's slavery for the folks that are producing for you. The biggest problem with from each according to his abilities, is that the to each according to his needs part creates abusive imbalance in power. The nomenklatura will always make sure that they enjoy having all of their "needs" met in a lavish style, while the proles will just keep banging away on the from each buzzer making it for them. When given power the creators of an entitlement class will always abuse that class and all others that they can control.

You just want to change who holds the whip to you and your friends, you don't want to get rid of the whip. Biggest mistake made at occwallst is to show up with no message, no clue and no organization to accomplish anything. Right now it is just pathetically sad street theater. About the only thing that would make it worthwhile talking about is a good tear gassing. At least then we would have some funny video to post on YouTube.

And on a slightly more dysfunctional note... @rainman? Troll? Really? That's the best you can come up with? Painting me with your imaginary friend paintbrush and pretending I'm not real doesn't change the truth. You are about two posts away from crashing your happy ass into the Godwin Wall of Inevitable Moronic Post. Feel the pressure right behind your eyes, that rising blood pressure? Just put down the keyboard, breathe deeply and relax. That's a good boy. The evil men will go away if you just stop thinking about them, don't think about the bridge, there are no trolls here. And for the love of God rainy, stay away from any isms in your next post. You will only embarrass yourself further.

[Rarity]

Is it still freedom when those people decide to help themselves without limit to your labor, your goods and your property?

That is our current system.  By denying people access to the basic necessities of life we compel them to take a job to survive, not to make their best contribution to society and the economy.  The propaganda you have received to make you think slavery = freedom is compelling and deep, but the more you think about this the more you will eventually understand the truth of how you have been exploited and brainwashed.  Once doctors are freed from relying on profit as motivation the issues surrounding payment disappear, they help as many people as they can, because helping people is their motivation.

Trust me, I have done very well for myself in our current system, that is how I came to understand it.  Why should I have come into this world with such wealth while others have nothing?  Would I want that for my own children?  Of course not, that is why it is time to change the world for the better.

[netrin]

If the protesters all had jobs, were innovative entrepreneurs protesting loose monetary policy, bailouts, quantitative easing, and excessive spending, would you be more sympathetic?

Does it matter that the majority of the protesters, just like the cross section of America do not quite understand what is going on, but know that their jobs are less stable, prices are going up, and feel a general frustration with politics and banking, even if not everyone can articulate it? Can you not also sympathize with people whose media is misinformative at best and whose politicians either lied to them or don't really understand finance themselves?

[LoupGaroux]

I disagree. Having the benefit of half a century of watching human nature live and in color, primarily in Third World countries I do not accept the notion that the natural state of mankind is to be altruistic. It doesn't work. It is not a survival instinct.

What you propose for the doctors in your utopian world sounds wonderful, of course with their pure hearts they want to help people. But they also like enjoying the higher access to resources and yes, even luxuries that their higher level of education provides them. Doctors will not be falling all over themselves to go out and do free work. What motivation does your system even provide to someone to be a medical student- the choice is do nothing and have all your needs met, or work hard for the better part of a decade, learn a body of skills that is completely new to you, and then 10 years later when you are ready to do your chosen craft, your needs are met exactly the same as your childhood friend who did nothing for ten years except play X-Box and eat nachos. Society owes you the same sustenance, and will provide for you identically, but society will tell you that you must go to a workplace and provide healthcare full time, and your investment in your education is worth nothing except the warm feeling of knowing something that others don't.

Sorry. That just isn't a viable social strategy. Humans create societies for mutual defense, and to allow a greater range of specialization to develop because this allows us, as a species to grow. Creating a society where there is an entitlement class that exists merely to take from others doesn't support that mechanism, and will naturally be selected against. Look at every single example of this collectivist experiment in human history- it is a terrible history of broken dreams and ruined lives, along with a healthy measure of death and sorrow. The Soviet, in all of it's many national forms- fail. The Peasant Dictatorship of Mao- fail. Cuban Marxism (although Castro was really a Trotskyite at heart)- fail. Arcosanti- complete abandonment of collectivist principles and now a tourist attraction selling church bells to support the caretaker staff. Icarian Community in Corning, Iowa- fail, now just 803 families where the wage distinction between men and women runs at over twice the national US average. The Trumbullplex in Detroit- fail, 9 years later it is nothing more that two houses and a chicken coop in the 'hood, not the sweeping social catalyst for change they advertised. The only example that even approaches consideration is the kibbutzim of Israel, and then only because they have massive external government and social investment and support, rely entirely on a non-collectivist state to provide for them, and in an ironic twist have even turned to issuing IPO's on Wall Street for their collectivist industry.

I salute you for believing that your way is better for you, I uphold your freedom, nay even your responsibility to be true to yourself. The problem is when that spirit encroaches on the freedom of the rest of humanity around you, by requiring the rest of us to subsidize your vision, or to buy into it.

And your final rhetorical aside... really? You would prefer that your children not enjoy the benefits, the privilege and the opportunity that their ancestors have built up for them? Have you checked with your children (if they are more than rhetorical straw men) to see how they feel about you cashing in their social inheritance to fund give-away programs for lazy strangers?

@netrin- interesting hypothetical. Perhaps a better question would be in the milleau of would a class of people such as those you describe feel that the bullhorn and a sleeping bag on the sidewalk are the path to enlightenment and social growth? Or would they, perhaps, use the proceeds of their jobs, the spirit of their entrepreneurial souls to make effective and ACTUAL change regarding loose monetary policy, bailouts et al? That the majority of the protestors are there without a clue does not excuse ignorant behavior. If they don't understand what their media and their politicians have manipulated them with they should be camping out in front of the news stations, sleeping in front of their Congresswoman's office door and demanding the representation that they should be getting. If they do not understand finance or why the system is broken (and yes, I agree that it is broken) they need to educate themselves, radicalize themselves and act. But act with purpose, not with the intent to get a sound bite of an angry dirty person of privilege who is acting like a prole by asking for donations. The deprivation of having to use a port-a-john and use gift cards to order delivery pizza? This is the revolution? I oppose this because it is a manipulated unintelligent waste of energy. It is throwing water at the ocean because you don't like waves. They provide the media farce of angry disenfranchised youth wanting to change the world, when they are being nothing more than the dupes for union thugs, manipulative bankers (Soros) and the lame parody of the Tea Party for the Left to become the boogey man for Conservatives to hate.

So, back to the OP, why am I not at Wall Street? Because it is a farce. It is not effective, and it is a waste of time. And the message being delivered is fractured, incoherent and foolish, and does nothing to advance any cause. This is not Che riding down our t of the hills with a Peasant Militia to seize Havana, this is Peron's brats acting badly in public so we won't notice that their handlers and masters are looting the banks and calling it revolution.

Think the intelligentsia shorted the market before occwallst happened? Think Soros makes millions by manipulating the drones who follow his commands? You are being played people. Take off the blinders.

[netrin]

Thousands of kilometers from New York, I had a similar sentiment (silly protesters don't know what they are protesting). But yet they are ripe for education. Either Michael Moore and government are going to tell them status quo is change and more spending is reform or their fellow educated Americans can tell them what's up. There is some truth to the Tea Party movement and their is some truth on Wall Street. There is also a lot of bullshit. But as long as these two groups are separated, they are manageable, and the system will turn beyond repair.

LoupGaroux you are right to be cynical, right to be critical, but wrong to be apathetic.

IFF the United States is a democracy, then the people need to regain power, they need to work together and educate each other, not fight in this parody of politics. They are thirsty for something that makes sense even if they are incapable of manifesting that sense themselves. The messages they hear loudest are from the very system they should be fighting. The people need to stop turning to their government for answers. Because that is a willing population under dictatorship. But we are no better to laugh at their efforts, seeing their folly but offering no help.

Thomas Paine:

These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated.

[BCEmporium]

@OT;

Because the Atlantic is a bit rough and way too big for me to can swim it from coast to coast

[Sannyasi]

MAH CAT DON'T LIKE CROWDS... so i donated instead...

[rainingbitcoins]

@rainman? Troll? Really?

Yeah, you're way too over-the-top, man. Either troll or the best customer Silk Road has ever seen.

But for what it's worth:

What motivation does your system even provide to someone to be a medical student

Cuba actually has the second-highest doctor-to-patient ratio in the world (170-to-1).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4583668.stm

What if Cuba's medical professionals decide to follow in the footsteps of several Cuban sport stars who in the past have gone to the US, lured by substantial financial rewards.

"We know that in the US scientists are highly paid. I receive only 665 pesos a month (less than US$40)," observes Dr Perez.

But "we work in a environment of fulfilment and innovation", he says, pointing towards a laboratory full of scientists.

"You are free to interview any of them.

"We are highly motivated, not by money and commercial profit, but by a commitment to saving lives. We have not lost any of them. Nobody has defected to the US."

Cuba is tied with the U.S. for #36 in the world in life expectancy at 78.3 years according to U.N. figures. To get that number, we spend over $7500 per capita (stat is from 2008, so it's risen a fair bit since then) to insure about 70% of our population. Cuba pays $1200 per capita to treat all of their people.

[genjix]

But yet they are ripe for education.

Informative post. These are my same sentiments. It's easy to be an arm-chair pessimist. But more rewarding to be helping others form an understanding. Not imposing your ideas, but being an available infopoint.

And the protesters are not one political colour. They're people from all planets. Just how the bitcoin community is not of one political group.

[BCEmporium]

And the protesters are not one political colour. They're people from all planets. Just how the bitcoin community is not of one political group.

And that's what makes it interesting. For the first time there aren't leaders, the isn't an union leader to be corrupted, no "negotiations", just people seeking their ideals.
The traditional political class must be terrified, from Spain, to Greece, to Middle East, to America... the ideas are on the wind and there's no way to stop them, even using their controlled press isn't working that well anymore.

[netrin]

The message I think that needs to first get out is: The system is fucked. There is no return to the "New Economy" before massive contraction. People need to first realize their savings are evaporating, government obligations are not realistic, and they need to prepare. They can erect the guillotine later. Austerity softens the symptoms of contagion, austerity is not the disease. That which politicians won't, can't and fear, is what is most necessary to explain.

[genjix]

I found this in an Occupy Wall Street discussion:

>Capitalism doesn't work, but not for the reasons that you stated.
It doesn't work because it does not respect the Free Market. Capitalism has become:
1) regulation on efficient small business through lobbies and the perpetuation of inefficient non-diversified monstrosities that can actually be unprofitable (GM, Citibank, etc.)
2) taking money that wasn't earned, by producing a valuable product to be exchanged on the open market at current demand, but rather using a "financial instrument" to make money in the shuffle of the reallocation of assets
3) Capitalism has also become legalized crime against our life liberty and pursuit of happiness.

The VERY worst thing that we have done is to mistake capitalism with the free market. This #OW is a bad idea though, it only perpetuates the class divide; leading to greaterr regulation and restrictive legislation that only serves to bring us closer to what we have fought against for 2 centuries: FASCISM.

Not too different from the views of some here. Uses different terms though.

Another quote:

Interesting how people in the Tea Party movement, the Occupy movement, & the Anonymous movement are all sensing a problem.

You can feel a problem in your bones if you stop for a second & listen to your body & ask the Universe for answers.

2012, or not,... it truly feels like the manipulation is coming to an end.

Our founding fathers had great ideas about protecting the citizens from corruption, subversion, and conspiracy.

I'd like to start listening to them on this issue a little more closely.

@ChaseRocker Actually, you idiot, many of us have jobs. Many of us head down to our local protests after work or class or over. Have you even bothered looking into this movement besides what FAUX NEWS might tell you about it? We aren't leftists, we aren't "liberals" we're people. Try actually coming out to an occupation and you'll see just how diverse the crowd is for yourself. Only one who's deranged here is you, but it's okay. You can continue being a part of the problem.

Leftist and rightist is a dividing issue. They are people.

[genjix]

[rainingbitcoins]

Not sure what you tried to post here, but I'm getting 11 dead image links.

e: nevermind. they're there now.

[Stalin-chan]

Excuse me, I AM at wallstreet.

[BCEmporium]

Excuse me, I AM at wallstreet.

Drinking champagne at the balcony?