22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution

[hilariousandco]

Creationists mostly deserve kindness and understanding, not scorn.

Not anymore.

Their blatant attempt to corrupt and twist science in order to re-package their delusion is unforgivable.  It will be met head on with reason and logic.

Did you not see my post directly above yours?  There are laws that show that that information had to come from an intelligent source.  Who is doing the "twisting" and "corrupting?"   There is plenty of logic and reason to support intelligent design.  If you are so sure of your position just give me an explanation of why you do not agree with my points above.  Otherwise I will assume that you are not using your reason and logic to counter them.

Actually you only make one point:

1) Since the DNA code of all life forms is clearly within the definition domain of information, we conclude there must be a Sender.

all other points assume that point 1 is true and therefore don't stand on their own.

Your conclusion that there must be a sender is also your premise. There must be a sender. And your other arguments proof the sender by a proof that is only possible when you already assume that there is a sender.


TL.DR. The argument that there must be an intelligent sender for information to exist is just pulled out of thin air, with no proof that it is true or any arguments to back it up. Without this assumption the rest of the arguments are totally hollow.

How does a robot work?  If we take away the computer chip the robot is useless.  We can look at the laws of nature and see that without information things will not function.  Without DNA, all living creatures would not be able to do anything either.  So this is a major point.  There is information encoded in us.  There had to be a sender of this information.  Who that "Sender" is can be debatable, of course.

As I am thinking about it, the last three points can stand on their own as well:

5) Since information is a non-material fundamental entity and cannot originate from material quantities, and since information also originates from man, we conclude that man's nature must have a non-material component (Spirit)
6) Since information is non-material entity we conclude that the assumption "The universe is composed solely of mass and energy" is false.
7) Since biological information originates from an intelligent sender and all theories of chemical and biological evolution require that information must originate solely from mass and energy alone (no sender) we conclude all theories or concepts of chemical or biological evolution are false.

Information is non-material.  It is kind of like having a computer chip but with no information on it.  Let's say we did evolve.  It would be kind of like a computer evolving with a hard drive, but where would the software come from that runs the computer?  The same could be said about our bodies.  If our bodies evolved, where did the encoding of our DNA come from?  As far as I can see evolution is based solely on mass and energy alone but information does not come out of mass and energy alone.

7. can't stand on it's own.

5. "and cannot originate from material quantities," assumption out of thin air. + "since information also originates from man" biological information (as you call it) doesn't originate from man --> false

6. Information requires mass and/or energy to exist. Without Mass and Energy there is no Information. This point is simply false.

Also the analogy with Hardware and Software may be nice to simplify organic live. But they can't be ultimately used to describe it. That a robot has a chip with software in order to work that needs to be programmed by a programmer is a useless observation to determine if live is "programmed" The robot analogy reveals no clues about any sender.
This is basically just the "Blind Watchmaker" Argument, which watches only the complete end outcome. Take away one part and the construction doesn't work any more. Take away one part and the construction doesn't work any more, therefore everything that doesn't work without all parts has to be constructed.  But constructions simply are not live. But Rannasha has already answered better.

The point was that evolution is based solely on mass and energy.  Information is not even factored into the equation.  However, information cannot come from just a big bang.  This is not evident in our world.  So the point is that there is a "non-material" element to information.  The question then is "Where did information come from?"  Our DNA has very complex information encoded in it.  That shows a supremely intelligent entity put the code there.  It would be like having a computer with an highly complex design in the software yet we just all think "Wow. It is great how that software just evolved from nowhere."  Why is that not possible?  Software on a computer is much less complex than our DNA.

No, the question is where did god come from? According to your logic god can't exist.

Computers and software aren’t made out of DNA and cells that mutate. If a supremely intelligent designer made us our cells wouldn't become cancerous. We wouldn't have little toes that barely work. We wouldn't have hair growing out of our arses. We wouldn't have such shitty eyesight. God is much more complex than us and a computer, yet surprise surprise, he can exist no problem and no questions asked.

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Wait, I though there was only one god? Satan is a fallen angel, but now he can mess with the cells of god's creation? Why doesn't satan give us all cancer? Especially Christians. Cancer exists because of faulty cells. Blaming satan for this shit is such a cop out. God is all powerful yet can't even get rid of satan? By the way, Jesus and Satan and their struggles are just metaphors.

[Peter Lambert]

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

Make do with the world we have or pretend there is some amazing place waiting for us when we die, which is more logical? Which is more productive?

[hilariousandco]

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

This world and life is probably all we have. I wouldn't waste it being bullied into believing in some bullshit. Tell me, when you die, if you're met with pitch-black nothingness will you be sad that you wasted your life? And calling it a crappy world; isn't that essentially slapping god in the face?

[BitChick]

Creationists mostly deserve kindness and understanding, not scorn.

Not anymore.

Their blatant attempt to corrupt and twist science in order to re-package their delusion is unforgivable.  It will be met head on with reason and logic.

Did you not see my post directly above yours?  There are laws that show that that information had to come from an intelligent source.  Who is doing the "twisting" and "corrupting?"   There is plenty of logic and reason to support intelligent design.  If you are so sure of your position just give me an explanation of why you do not agree with my points above.  Otherwise I will assume that you are not using your reason and logic to counter them.

Actually you only make one point:

1) Since the DNA code of all life forms is clearly within the definition domain of information, we conclude there must be a Sender.

all other points assume that point 1 is true and therefore don't stand on their own.

Your conclusion that there must be a sender is also your premise. There must be a sender. And your other arguments proof the sender by a proof that is only possible when you already assume that there is a sender.


TL.DR. The argument that there must be an intelligent sender for information to exist is just pulled out of thin air, with no proof that it is true or any arguments to back it up. Without this assumption the rest of the arguments are totally hollow.

How does a robot work?  If we take away the computer chip the robot is useless.  We can look at the laws of nature and see that without information things will not function.  Without DNA, all living creatures would not be able to do anything either.  So this is a major point.  There is information encoded in us.  There had to be a sender of this information.  Who that "Sender" is can be debatable, of course.

As I am thinking about it, the last three points can stand on their own as well:

5) Since information is a non-material fundamental entity and cannot originate from material quantities, and since information also originates from man, we conclude that man's nature must have a non-material component (Spirit)
6) Since information is non-material entity we conclude that the assumption "The universe is composed solely of mass and energy" is false.
7) Since biological information originates from an intelligent sender and all theories of chemical and biological evolution require that information must originate solely from mass and energy alone (no sender) we conclude all theories or concepts of chemical or biological evolution are false.

Information is non-material.  It is kind of like having a computer chip but with no information on it.  Let's say we did evolve.  It would be kind of like a computer evolving with a hard drive, but where would the software come from that runs the computer?  The same could be said about our bodies.  If our bodies evolved, where did the encoding of our DNA come from?  As far as I can see evolution is based solely on mass and energy alone but information does not come out of mass and energy alone.

7. can't stand on it's own.

5. "and cannot originate from material quantities," assumption out of thin air. + "since information also originates from man" biological information (as you call it) doesn't originate from man --> false

6. Information requires mass and/or energy to exist. Without Mass and Energy there is no Information. This point is simply false.

Also the analogy with Hardware and Software may be nice to simplify organic live. But they can't be ultimately used to describe it. That a robot has a chip with software in order to work that needs to be programmed by a programmer is a useless observation to determine if live is "programmed" The robot analogy reveals no clues about any sender.
This is basically just the "Blind Watchmaker" Argument, which watches only the complete end outcome. Take away one part and the construction doesn't work any more. Take away one part and the construction doesn't work any more, therefore everything that doesn't work without all parts has to be constructed.  But constructions simply are not live. But Rannasha has already answered better.

The point was that evolution is based solely on mass and energy.  Information is not even factored into the equation.  However, information cannot come from just a big bang.  This is not evident in our world.  So the point is that there is a "non-material" element to information.  The question then is "Where did information come from?"  Our DNA has very complex information encoded in it.  That shows a supremely intelligent entity put the code there.  It would be like having a computer with an highly complex design in the software yet we just all think "Wow. It is great how that software just evolved from nowhere."  Why is that not possible?  Software on a computer is much less complex than our DNA.

No, the question is where did god come from? According to your logic god can't exist.

Computers and software aren’t made out of DNA and cells that mutate. If a supremely intelligent designer made us our cells wouldn't become cancerous. We wouldn't have little toes that barely work. We wouldn't have hair growing out of our arses. We wouldn't have such shitty eyesight. God is much more complex than us and a computer, yet surprise surprise, he can exist no problem and no questions asked.

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Wait, I though there was only one god? Satan is a fallen angel, but now he can mess with the cells of god's creation? Why doesn't satan give us all cancer? Especially Christians. Cancer exists because of faulty cells. Blaming satan for this shit is such a cop out. God is all powerful yet can't even get rid of satan? By the way, Jesus and Satan and their struggles are just metaphors.

Our world is in a "fallen" state.  At what point is Satan to blame, or just the fact that the world is now filled with diseases because of the natural occurrence of such things is debatable, of course.  Why God allows suffering is an ongoing discussion.  But every good and perfect gift comes from God.  God is Love.  God is Good.  If we understand His true nature we can see the world for what it is and put blame where it is due.  And God is all powerful but for whatever reason He is allowing us to live in this fallen state, I believe because He wants to see who will choose Him based on our own free-will.  He could force us all to serve Him and submit but then how would He really know who loves Him or not?  

[Akka]

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

[BitChick]

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

This world and life is probably all we have. I wouldn't waste it being bullied into believing in some bullshit. Tell me, when you die, if you're met with pitch-black nothingness will you be sad that you wasted your life? And calling it a crappy world; isn't that essentially slapping god in the face?

I guess your right.  God has done many amazing things in my life so it is not really fair to call it "crappy."  But I had a pastor say that this life was the "closest to hell we will ever be" as Christians.  So, in a since this life is pretty "crappy" from that viewpoint!  

[Rannasha]

Creationists mostly deserve kindness and understanding, not scorn.

Not anymore.

Their blatant attempt to corrupt and twist science in order to re-package their delusion is unforgivable.  It will be met head on with reason and logic.

Did you not see my post directly above yours?  There are laws that show that that information had to come from an intelligent source.  Who is doing the "twisting" and "corrupting?"   There is plenty of logic and reason to support intelligent design.  If you are so sure of your position just give me an explanation of why you do not agree with my points above.  Otherwise I will assume that you are not using your reason and logic to counter them.

Actually you only make one point:

1) Since the DNA code of all life forms is clearly within the definition domain of information, we conclude there must be a Sender.

all other points assume that point 1 is true and therefore don't stand on their own.

Your conclusion that there must be a sender is also your premise. There must be a sender. And your other arguments proof the sender by a proof that is only possible when you already assume that there is a sender.


TL.DR. The argument that there must be an intelligent sender for information to exist is just pulled out of thin air, with no proof that it is true or any arguments to back it up. Without this assumption the rest of the arguments are totally hollow.

How does a robot work?  If we take away the computer chip the robot is useless.  We can look at the laws of nature and see that without information things will not function.  Without DNA, all living creatures would not be able to do anything either.  So this is a major point.  There is information encoded in us.  There had to be a sender of this information.  Who that "Sender" is can be debatable, of course.

You assume that information, or complexity, can not emerge naturally from a basic set of natural laws without a supreme being (the Sender) artificially inserting it.

As a counterpoint, I present Conway's Game of Life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life). The Game of Life is a very basic "game" that consists of a 2-dimensional grid of cells that are either dead or alive (white or black, off or on, however you want to phrase it). There are 4 simple rules that specify how the status of a cell changes in the next step of the game. These rules are so simple that an 8 year old kid could take an initial state and evolve (not using the biological notion here) the game to subsequent steps. Of course, doing this manually is a slow process, but the Game of Life can be easily implemented on a computer.

What do we see when we take these very simple rules and some initial state and let things play out? Depending on the initial state, very complex patterns can emerge. From cyclic sequences with a period of thousands of steps to practically stationary structures that continuously produce new elements that are "shot" across the field. It is even possible for Game of Life to simulate itself, that is, many small cells make up much larger structures that operate on the same rules as the small cells, but on a much slower time scale. The system is also Turing-complete, which means that any mathematical function that can be computed with traditional computation methods can also simulated within the Game of Life.

The Game of Life is an impressive example of how from a very restrictive set of rules (2D-grid, discrete timesteps, only 2 possible states for each basic element) incredibly complex structures can emerge. Given what is already possible within Game of Life, it makes one wonder what emergent complexity is possible in universe with (at least) 3 spatial dimensions, continuous time (probably) and many more basic elements and possible states. And all of this doesn't require the complexity to be created. It just needs some initial state, a set of rules and a metaphorical flip of the "on" switch. Complexity will emerge on its own.

I cannot base my entire belief of life on the idea of a magical "flip on" switch for complexity or "information" to be encoded in the world.  It is much more logical to believe that there was "programmer" that put the DNA code there.

I on the other hand find it far more natural and even elegant that our entire world and universe comes from a (fairly) simple set of rules and some initial state and that the complexity just emerged over the eons as the system evolved (again, not the biological notion) following this set of rules.

We have seen this emergent complexity in systems so simple a child can understand the rules, like Game of Life. If complexity can emerge in such a scenario, then I don't see why it would be more logical to postulate a "programmer" to introduce the complexity that could've emerged on its own. It just makes things needlessly more complicated.

[BitChick]

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

Who started most of the hospitals?  Who has miraculously come down and healed people of their sicknesses?  God is behind the compassion and care of humanity.  I don't see atheists starting hospitals and praying for the sick do you?  I have seen God heal people of cancer (two people personally that I have prayed for.  One with stage 3 lung cancer and one with stage 4 pancreatic cancer)  Both were not expected to live.  God still can still do miracles when we humble ourselves and pray.  The question I still have is why He chooses to sometimes and why He chooses not to.  But He is God and I am not. He has a plan bigger than what I understand and part of the process is trusting Him even when it doesn't make sense to me.  

[hilariousandco]

Wait, I though there was only one god? Satan is a fallen angel, but now he can mess with the cells of god's creation? Why doesn't satan give us all cancer? Especially Christians. Cancer exists because of faulty cells. Blaming satan for this shit is such a cop out. God is all powerful yet can't even get rid of satan? By the way, Jesus and Satan and their struggles are just metaphors.

Our world is in a "fallen" state.  At what point is Satan to blame, or just the fact that the world is now filled with diseases because of the natural occurrence of such things is debatable, of course.  Why God allows suffering is an ongoing discussion.  But every good and perfect gift comes from God.  God is Love.  God is Good.  If we understand His true nature we can see the world for what it is and put blame where it is due.  And God is all powerful but for whatever reason He is allowing us to live in this fallen state, I believe because He wants to see who will choose Him based on our own free-will.  He could force us all to serve Him and submit but then how would He really know who loves Him or not?  

It's not debatable. God either made diseases or he didn't. Either they evolved like everything else or god is one sick fuck. And he kinda is forcing us. It's believe in me or I'll fucking kill you. That's not very nice of him. That's bullying and an abusive relationship. He also seems to want us to believe some pretty stupid stuff. Why give us intelligence then expect us to forgo its use?

[Akka]

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

Who started most of the hospitals?  Who has miraculously come down and healed people of their sicknesses?  God is behind the compassion and care of humanity.  I don't see atheists starting hospitals and praying for the sick do you?  I have seen God heal people of cancer (two people personally that I have prayed for.  One with stage 3 lung cancer and one with stage 4 pancreatic cancer)  Both were not expected to live.  God still can still do miracles when we humble ourselves and pray.  The question I still have is why He chooses to sometimes and why He chooses not to.  But He is God and I am not. He has a plan bigger than what I understand and part of the process is trusting Him even when it doesn't make sense to me.  

Edit: Somehow I messed up my Answer:

Seriously. God knows all. That means he knows the future. Giving someone cancer and let it develop until the end stage only to eventually heal them is purely sadistic. You can't believe that. Why not heal them right away before they suffer. Oh, because he is "mysterious". Because you prayed for them? If nobody prayed for them they don't deserve to live?

No, in nearly all of "miraculous" cases medicine is to thank for.

Cancer miracles are simply explained by the immune system. Cancer would be no match for our immune system, the problem sometime the system doesn't recognize cancer cells as thread, letting cancer develop. Cases of miracle healing are simply the system recognizing the cancer and starting to fight it. I can't see a wonder here.

[hilariousandco]

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

Who started most of the hospitals?  Who has miraculously come down and healed people of their sicknesses?  God is behind the compassion and care of humanity.  I don't see atheists starting hospitals and praying for the sick do you?  I have seen God heal people of stage 4 cancer (two people personally that I have prayed for.  One with stage 3 lung cancer and one with stage 4 pancreatic cancer)  Both were not expected to live.  God still can still do miracles when we humble ourselves and pray.  The question I still have is why He chooses to sometimes and why He chooses not to.  But He is God and I am not. He has a plan bigger than what I understand and part of the process is trusting Him even when it doesn't make sense to me.  

There are plenty of atheists who are doctors, but they're not gonna waste time praying are they. Only they do it out of humanity and humanism, not being scared of god and thinking they're scoring brownie points with him. When a religious person does good, it's for that reason only, not for the benefit and advancement of mankind. Did any of these people you prayed for have any medical intervention or was it just the power of prayer that healed them? If you ever get cancer would you refuse medical treatment and just pray?

The question I still have is why He chooses to sometimes and why He chooses not to

He doesn't. Sometimes people get sick and get better. Sometimes they die. They'll usually always die without doctors. Can you not see these are just excuses? You're blind to the truth.

[cahueb]

There is no God who cares about humans specifically or either created a world for us. Believing in such an idea is to be egocentric and misunderstand the meaning of the word "life" at all.

[Akka]

Wait, I though there was only one god? Satan is a fallen angel, but now he can mess with the cells of god's creation? Why doesn't satan give us all cancer? Especially Christians. Cancer exists because of faulty cells. Blaming satan for this shit is such a cop out. God is all powerful yet can't even get rid of satan? By the way, Jesus and Satan and their struggles are just metaphors.

Our world is in a "fallen" state.  At what point is Satan to blame, or just the fact that the world is now filled with diseases because of the natural occurrence of such things is debatable, of course.  Why God allows suffering is an ongoing discussion.  But every good and perfect gift comes from God.  God is Love.  God is Good.  If we understand His true nature we can see the world for what it is and put blame where it is due.  And God is all powerful but for whatever reason He is allowing us to live in this fallen state, I believe because He wants to see who will choose Him based on our own free-will.  He could force us all to serve Him and submit but then how would He really know who loves Him or not?  

It's not debatable. God either made diseases or he didn't. Either they evolved like everything else or god is one sick fuck. And he kinda is forcing us. It's believe in me or I'll fucking kill you. That's not very nice of him. That's bullying and an abusive relationship. He also seems to want us to believe some pretty stupid stuff. Why give us intelligence then expect us to forgo its use?

Made me think of that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6AdEDm2mLQ&index=49&list=PLECD9ACF9D6F1F8FF&t=71s  (don't click if you are easily offended)

[cahueb]

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

Who started most of the hospitals?  Who has miraculously come down and healed people of their sicknesses?  God is behind the compassion and care of humanity.  I don't see atheists starting hospitals and praying for the sick do you?  I have seen God heal people of cancer (two people personally that I have prayed for.  One with stage 3 lung cancer and one with stage 4 pancreatic cancer)  Both were not expected to live.  God still can still do miracles when we humble ourselves and pray.  The question I still have is why He chooses to sometimes and why He chooses not to.  But He is God and I am not. He has a plan bigger than what I understand and part of the process is trusting Him even when it doesn't make sense to me.  

Do you think if those people who "god" healed did not have treated their cancers with doctors, medicines and etc, would survive? Yeah I guess not. But do you think they would survive without your prays? I think so. If you don't, Let's say these people were random good people who helped a lot, let's say in Africa, but didn't have a good prayer friend, they did not deserve to survive? Oh look how beautiful and good is your god.

[BitChick]

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

Who started most of the hospitals?  Who has miraculously come down and healed people of their sicknesses?  God is behind the compassion and care of humanity.  I don't see atheists starting hospitals and praying for the sick do you?  I have seen God heal people of cancer (two people personally that I have prayed for.  One with stage 3 lung cancer and one with stage 4 pancreatic cancer)  Both were not expected to live.  God still can still do miracles when we humble ourselves and pray.  The question I still have is why He chooses to sometimes and why He chooses not to.  But He is God and I am not. He has a plan bigger than what I understand and part of the process is trusting Him even when it doesn't make sense to me.  

Do you think if those people who "god" healed did not have treated their cancers with doctors, medicines and etc, would survive? Yeah I guess not. But do you think they would survive without your prays? I think so. If you don't, Let's say these people were random good people who helped a lot, let's say in Africa, but didn't have a good prayer friend, they did not deserve to survive? Oh look how beautiful and good is your god.

Actually in both cases the people I prayed for had gotten to the point where the doctors could not do anything else.  The doctors could not even explain why they survived.  Of course these are just two cases.  I have known many people die of cancer and I don't even understand myself why God chooses to heal sometimes and other times He does not.  It really is beyond me.  But my point is that God can heal.  God sometimes heals.   But in the big scheme of things, God is more concerned about our eternal well-being than our current physical well being.  It isn't that He doesn't care, but He cares more where we will spend eternity than where we are living for the short-term.

[C10H15N]

Now we are back to preaching (which is where this always ends up).

The bullshit does not smell any better now than it did forty some odd years ago when the attempt was made to force feed to me at the age of eight.

Your god is a manifestation of your own imagination and this existence is both your heaven and your hell.  Holding out for something better on the "other side" is wasting the only life you are going to have with any degree of certainty.  

[BitChick]

Now we are back to preaching (which is where this always ends up).

The bullshit does not smell any better now than it did forty some odd years ago when the attempt was made to force feed to me at the age of eight.

Your god is a manifestation of your own imagination and this existence is both your heaven and your hell.  Holding out for something better on the "other side" is wasting the only life you are going to have with any degree of certainty.  

It only came back to "preaching" because someone else brought up the question of God allowing sickness in the world and I shared my viewpoint.

"Religion" is sometimes "forced" by people in the world, unfortunately, but God never forces Himself on anyone.  If he "forced" himself we would not have the choice to accept or reject Him and you, obviously, have that choice.

[jcoin200]

Now we are back to preaching (which is where this always ends up).

The bullshit does not smell any better now than it did forty some odd years ago when the attempt was made to force feed to me at the age of eight.

Your god is a manifestation of your own imagination and this existence is both your heaven and your hell.  Holding out for something better on the "other side" is wasting the only life you are going to have with any degree of certainty.  

I'm still awaiting your logical explanation of stasis in the fossil record:
Stasis: Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless.

As well as how you think abiogenesis came about only for that one exception to "start life"

[the joint]

Referring to comments about "non-material" aspects of a human, etc....

...Another word for "non-material" is "abstract," and a close relative of "abstract" is "mental."  An abstract or mental component *must* exist in order to facilitate communication -- information is absolutely unintelligible unless there is something to process that information in an intelligible way, such as a mind.

It's an unsound leap to state that the material world exists and could exist independent of all minds because there would be nothing intelligible about the leftover information so as to even allow it to be described as material or existent.  

BitChick has some valid points, and even a few downright compelling arguments that are too easily dismissed by this crowd.  While I don't agree with all ideas she has put forth, I'd encourage some of her critics to refuse the impulse to dismiss all of her ideas as invalid.  Seriously, blasting Creationists seems to have become the dumb scientist's favorite joke.  I think that many of you simply believe that one or several false statements renders all of her arguments invalid.  That's stupid.

[BitChick]

Referring to comments about "non-material" aspects of a human, etc....

...Another word for "non-material" is "abstract," and a close relative of "abstract" is "mental."  An abstract or mental component *must* exist in order to facilitate communication -- information is absolutely unintelligible unless there is something to process that information in an intelligible way, such as a mind.

It's an unsound leap to state that the material world exists and could exist independent of all minds because there would be nothing intelligible about the leftover information so as to even ascribe it as being material or existent.  

BitChick has some valid points, and even a few downright compelling arguments that are too easily dismissed by this crowd.  While I don't agree with all ideas she has put forth, I'd encourage some of her critics to refuse the impulse to dismiss all of her ideas as invalid.  Seriously, blasting Creationists seems to have become the dumb scientist's favorite joke.  I think that many of you simply believe that one or several false statements renders all of her arguments invalid.  That's stupid.

Thank you for seeing that I am not all "crazy."