Human Rationality

[JeffK]

I think all the insults fly because while we libertarians can take refuge in how elegant and morally sound our views are when we get frustrated, the statists don't have that refuge. So, when they get frustrated, they just lash out.

Your views are anything but sound and elegant. They are only near 'sound' in a system with only rational actors.


People are not rational

Doubly so, pointing out hypocrisy can be used as a way to show that actors are not rational or honest, once again disproving you.

[1713446215]

1713446215

[Anonymous]

I think all the insults fly because while we libertarians can take refuge in how elegant and morally sound our views are when we get frustrated, the statists don't have that refuge. So, when they get frustrated, they just lash out.

Your views are anything but sound and elegant. They are only near 'sound' in a system with only rational actors.


People are not rational

People are not rational. People form governments. People elect people towards governments. Shouldn't then the elections then thus be irrational? Shouldn't our leaders then be irrational?

If humans cannot act rationally, then aren't we doomed to an end of irrational means?

[JeffK]

If humans cannot act rationally, then aren't we doomed to an end of irrational means?

Probably yes. sorry if that is too cynical of a viewpoint. It doesn't mean we can't put roadblocks in place to compensate for our irrationality and slow down the doom.

[Anonymous]

If humans cannot act rationally, then aren't we doomed to an end of irrational means?

Probably yes. sorry if that is too cynical of a viewpoint. It doesn't mean we can't put roadblocks in place to compensate for our irrationality and slow down the doom.

That would imply humanity has an ounce of rationality and is able to aid itself in some form.

[Hawker]

Perhaps JeffK stated the case too strongly?  "Humanity is generally but not always rational."  We know most stuff we do as individuals and as societies makes sense.  But there are also the "wtf is going on there?" things that suggest the brain takes a holiday from time to time.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps JeffK stated the case too strongly?  "Humanity is generally but not always rational."  We know most stuff we do as individuals and as societies makes sense.  But there are also the "wtf is going on there?" things that suggest the brain takes a holiday from time to time.

In any case, I think it's sufficient to say humanity is capable of rational thinking and to dismiss a liberal and leashless system on the argument that it can't function because of an inherent irrationality is bunk.

[JeffK]

If humans cannot act rationally, then aren't we doomed to an end of irrational means?

Probably yes. sorry if that is too cynical of a viewpoint. It doesn't mean we can't put roadblocks in place to compensate for our irrationality and slow down the doom.

That would imply humanity has an ounce of rationality and is able to aid itself in some form.

Libertarian systems generally assume everyone is rational - this is not true. If it was, you and I wouldn't have different political idealogies, but would come to a similar, rational conclusion, whatever that may be.

That does not mean that human irrationality does not exist, or we would not have progress. We definitely have the rationality needed to make progress and collectively recognize our faults. This is generally how things like "states" and "regulations" arise - as a way to compensate for our lack of cohesiveness, rationality, and cooperativeness as a species.

[JeffK]

Perhaps JeffK stated the case too strongly?  "Humanity is generally but not always rational."  We know most stuff we do as individuals and as societies makes sense.  But there are also the "wtf is going on there?" things that suggest the brain takes a holiday from time to time.

In any case, I think it's sufficient to say humanity is capable of rational thinking and to dismiss a liberal and leashless system on the argument that it can't function because of an inherent irrationality is bunk.

It's not that it can't function, it just creates an environment where irrationality, whether you want to admit it or not, has positions to flourish. Granted, eventually the free market may "weed out" that irrationality, but not after the damage has been done.

[Anonymous]

If humans cannot act rationally, then aren't we doomed to an end of irrational means?

Probably yes. sorry if that is too cynical of a viewpoint. It doesn't mean we can't put roadblocks in place to compensate for our irrationality and slow down the doom.

That would imply humanity has an ounce of rationality and is able to aid itself in some form.

Libertarian systems generally assume everyone is rational - this is not true. If it was, you and I wouldn't have different political idealogies, but would come to a similar, rational conclusion, whatever that may be.

That does not mean that human irrationality does not exist, or we would not have progress. We definitely have the rationality needed to make progress and collectively recognize our faults. This is generally how things like "states" and "regulations" arise - as a way to compensate for our lack of cohesiveness, rationality, and cooperativeness as a species.

I agree that not everyone is rational. Libertarianism actually assumes that only an individual knows what's best for himself. Your ideology dictates that if an individual acts in a self-oriented interest that you do not agree with then an entity has a right to take ownership of said individual. You believe in a universal set of desires that should be applied to all people. You believe in a single rigid collective. We believe in a flexible system of individuals cooperating and voluntarily in coalitions of matching whims.

[The Script]

Actually, I'll go ahead and make the claim that everyone is a rational actor.  Not everyone acts in their own best interest, but they always act in what they think is their own best interest.  Mises says that the incentive to act is always some uneasiness or discontent.  The problem is the lack of perfect information.

[FredericBastiat]

Libertarian systems generally assume everyone is rational - this is not true. If it was, you and I wouldn't have different political idealogies, but would come to a similar, rational conclusion, whatever that may be.

That does not mean that human irrationality does not exist, or we would not have progress. We definitely have the rationality needed to make progress and collectively recognize our faults. This is generally how things like "states" and "regulations" arise - as a way to compensate for our lack of cohesiveness, rationality, and cooperativeness as a species.

I see states and regulations arising to take advantage of irrational humans, and rational humans get railroaded in the process. A rather sad state of affairs. Just look to Hitler as a good example. Look into the faces of Germans to see their elation when their Furor came. They almost saw him as their savior. They were just looking to find a way out of their poverty and oppression. Little did they know.

I'm not saying all governments are as destructive as the Nazis but they certainly have some similarities. The following is a quote parroting what others have said in the past (you aren't the first):

"Moreover, if they have consented to recognize in the heart of man a capability of action, and in his intellect a faculty of discernment, they have looked upon this gift of God as a fatal one, and thought that mankind, under these two impulses, tended fatally towards ruin. They have taken it for granted that if abandoned to their own  inclinations, men would only occupy themselves with religion to arrive at atheism, with instruction to come to ignorance, and with labor and exchange to be extinguished in misery...It is only needful to open, almost at random, a book on philosophy, politics, or history, to see how strongly this idea—the child of classical studies and the mother of socialism—is rooted in our country; that mankind is merely inert matter, receiving life, organization, morality, and wealth from power; or, rather, and still worse—that mankind itself tends towards degradation, and is only arrested in its tendency by the mysterious hand of the legislator." -- Frederic Bastiat, 1850.