Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind

[ChuckOne]

But this information could come delayed. When does a node say: stop I do not accept this block from this account anymore?

This is why *timing* is an *essential* part of Nxt (your clock needs to be set very accurately).

Bitcoin doesn't have a reliance upon NNTP (which is why the timestamps can vary quite a bit) but Nxt *does*.

Okay, I see.

But then, what's the legitimate branch of the chain?

[1714723319]

1714723319

[1714723319]

1714723319

[CIYAM]

But then, what's the legitimate branch of the chain?

That is determined by what in Bitcoin terms would be "the most work".

In Nxt terms if the hash was best for 1111 but 2222 also was close then whoever ended up choosing 2222 would be on a fork until they changed to 1111 (assuming they didn't see 1111 straight away).

This is a typical "fork" problem - and is solved once the nodes in the network "see" the best chain (they have approx. 1 day to do so from what I gather).

[Come-from-Beyond]

But this information could come delayed. When does a node say: stop I do not accept this block from this account anymore?

This is why *timing* is an *essential* part of Nxt (your clock needs to be set very accurately).

Bitcoin doesn't have a reliance upon NNTP (which is why the timestamps can vary quite a bit) but Nxt *does* (this is also a very fair *criticism* of Nxt IMO).

Yes, timing is essential in Nxt. Luckily it's not a big problem to have the time synced.

[CIYAM]

Yes, timing is essential in Nxt. Luckily it's not a big problem to have the time synced.

Agreed - but it would be better if we didn't need to rely upon NNTP servers to do this (perhaps some future tech will make them obsolete?).

[Come-from-Beyond]

But then, what's the legitimate branch of the chain?

U should stick to a branch where ur balance is the highest, it's a part of the advanced consensus (coz "the longest chain wins" is not enough when accounts r penalized for skipping their turn to forge a block).

[Come-from-Beyond]

Agreed - but it would be better if we didn't need to rely upon NNTP servers to do this (perhaps some future tech will make them obsolete?).

The life is full of trade-offs, I'm not sure that Nxt could work properly without time syncing.

[CIYAM]

The life is full of trade-offs, I'm not sure that Nxt could work properly without time syncing.

I *know* it wouldn't (told you - I have created my own equivalent in pseudo-code and it also needs timing to work).

I *research* things when I am interested in them. 

[ChuckOne]

But then, what's the legitimate branch of the chain?

U should stick to a branch where ur balance is the highest, it's a part of the advanced consensus (coz "the longest chain wins" is not enough when accounts r penalized for skipping their turn to forge a block).

Ah, I remember you told me that.

Not sure, if I understand why this should be my favorite choice.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Not sure, if I understand why this should be my favorite choice.

Coz if someone is double-spending against u then they likely r trying to lower ur balance.

[ZeroTheGreat]

Yes, timing is essential in Nxt. Luckily it's not a big problem to have the time synced.

Agreed - but it would be better if we didn't need to rely upon NNTP servers to do this (perhaps some future tech will make them obsolete?).

If someone decide to compromise clock servers, it'll affect whole economy and beat attacker back definetely. I don't heard about attacks like that. Nxt also relays on Internet connection

[$titoe]

cool plan. waiting for April

[Come-from-Beyond]

If someone decide to compromise clock servers, it'll affect whole economy and beat attacket back definetely. I don't heard about attacks like that. Nxt also relays on Internet connection 

USB Atomic clock will save ur ass.

[Isildur23]

Sorry for the newbie question:
How can we create a decentralised coin backed by Nxt that has a constantly increasing supply? Can we make a feature allowing us to convert Nxt to some coin(made for this) in a decentralised way? Let's say you send 10 Nxt to some "special" account and you somehow automatically receive lets say 100 NXTCASH coins. The conversion rate should follow an algorithm and constantly increase but just slightly. Is this possible? Could that coin offer instant transactions just like Nxt?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Sorry for the newbie question:
How can we create a decentralised coin backed by Nxt that has a constantly increasing supply? Can we make a feature allowing us to convert Nxt to some coin(made for this) in a decentralised way? Let's say you send 10 Nxt to some "special" account and you somehow automatically receive lets say 100 NXTCASH coins. The conversion rate should follow an algorithm and constantly increase but just slightly. Is this possible? Could that coin offer instant transactions just like Nxt?

Currencies backed by NXT r not implemented yet.

[pandaisftw]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but this seems to idealistically ignore a different sort of selfishness.
If I'm running a Nxt-based business, I could either invest in forging myself, or just not bother, and expect someone else to do it.
A business that forges for itself, with minimal mining rewards, will be less efficient than one that just expects someone else to do it.
The free-riding company will out-compete the 'honest' company.

Agree with ChuckOne. Look also at the example of bittorrent: the torrent trackers had to use rating systems and such, just because otherwise there would be too many leechers for too few seeders. That's not because it costs anything (at least in free countries like Brasil, where there is no risk that you could get prosecuted for that) just to leave the client open, it's because people just don't care about it. There are so many things to care about in this life, so it's better to offer at least some reward if we want that people invest some attention to the network maintenance.  

I wonder if the idea is doomed because of Diffusion of Responsibility.

NXT is a little different than bittorrent in that the value of your NXT will drop if the network becomes insecure. If you're a torrent seeder, you're providing a service out of the generosity of your own heart. Additionally, the files your are providing don't actually have any invested value - it is more than likely most seeders are not the ones who created that file, so they could care less if the network failed. In NXT, you're providing a service (forging) because you want to preserve the value of your NXT. Due to game theory, the only node you can truly trust to act responsibly, is your own.

So think of it this way: if you had a multi-million dollar business built on-top of NXT, would you want the network to be weak and insecure? Even if it looks very healthy now, do you trust others to keep their nodes up 100% of the time? Heck no, you'd be forging to make sure the network stays up 100% of the time so it doesn't affect your business. Luckily, the cost of running the NXT client is cents per day.

[ChuckOne]

NXT is a little different than bittorrent in that the value of your NXT will drop if the network becomes insecure. If you're a torrent seeder, you're providing a service out of the generosity of your own heart. Additionally, the files your are providing don't actually have any invested value - it is more than likely most seeders are not the ones who created that file, so they could care less if the network failed. In NXT, you're providing a service (forging) because you want to preserve the value of your NXT. Due to game theory, the only node you can truly trust to act responsibly, is your own.

So think of it this way: if you had a multi-million dollar business built on-top of NXT, would you want the network to be weak and insecure? Even if it looks very healthy now, do you trust others to keep their nodes up 100% of the time? Heck no, you'd be forging to make sure the network stays up 100% of the time so it doesn't affect your business. Luckily, the cost of running the NXT client is cents per day.

I agree with you, too. It is different and as a big business relying on NXT you should better secure it yourself. You won't hear an argument by me.

What I really appreciate about this discussion is the broad and unique perspectives of each of us. And you know what? I think everybody is right in a certain sense. Just wanted to say that. Maybe, it's the music.

But what do we do now? Especially, how do we express our wide variety of opinions in terms of hard NXT variables and algos?

I think most of us:
 - agree to lower the fees in order to let people build on top of NXT
 - that ventures on top of NXT will secure the network because of their immediate dependence on NXT
 - think forging is not evil but should not the foremost reason to join NXT
 - advertise NXT in order to raise awareness
 - create ideas and inspire people to build on top of NXT

[ChuckOne]

Just a personal side-note to CfB: when will all of the advanced consensus mechanism be revealed?

[gs02xzz]

edit: Or is this a terminology problem, because 'gold coins' are no coins?

Hm, looks like this is a problem with my English. BCNext's idea is that NXTs shouldn't be used as mean of exchange.

For me, this ''mean of exchange" means daily commercial payment method. NXT still can be exchanged with the "real coins" (mean of exchange), as the relationship between gold and USD. But how are you able to make the exchange rate between NXT and the "real coins" constant? If the demand for the real coins becomes high, you can issue more real coins to keep the rate constant. But if the demand becomes low, you can't buy back them because there is no central bank. Do you really need to keep it constant?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Just a personal side-note to CfB: when will all of the advanced consensus mechanism be revealed?

When one of u re-invent them.

[Come-from-Beyond]

edit: Or is this a terminology problem, because 'gold coins' are no coins?

Hm, looks like this is a problem with my English. BCNext's idea is that NXTs shouldn't be used as mean of exchange.

For me, this ''mean of exchange" means daily commercial payment method. NXT still can be exchanged with the "real coins" (mean of exchange), as the relationship between gold and USD. But how are you able to make the exchange rate between NXT and the "real coins" constant? If the demand for the real coins becomes high, you can issue more real coins to keep the rate constant. But if the demand becomes low, you can't buy back them because there is no central bank. Do you really need to keep it constant?

Why do we need exchange rate between NXT and "real coins" to be constant?