Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind

[landomata]

edit: Or is this a terminology problem, because 'gold coins' are no coins?

Hm, looks like this is a problem with my English. BCNext's idea is that NXTs shouldn't be used as mean of exchange.

For me, this ''mean of exchange" means daily commercial payment method. NXT still can be exchanged with the "real coins" (mean of exchange), as the relationship between gold and USD. But how are you able to make the exchange rate between NXT and the "real coins" constant? If the demand for the real coins becomes high, you can issue more real coins to keep the rate constant. But if the demand becomes low, you can't buy back them because there is no central bank. Do you really need to keep it constant?

Why do we need exchange rate between NXT and "real coins" to be constant?

We can easily build a coin on top of Nxt and keep it's price constant with "real coins".

[Come-from-Beyond]

We can easily build a coin on top of Nxt and keep it's price constant with "real coins".

I'd like to see an implementation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) on top of Nxt.

[xyzzyx]

NXT forging is deterministic, we are not searching for a needle in a haystack. Even with 1 billion forging nodes, you will know with 99.99% (or something close to that) accuracy the next X people that will forge. In the future, base target (difficulty) will simply be a legacy from Bitcoin - which c-f-b mentioned in OP - because why do you need to adjust difficulty when the forging order is already determined? If the order is determined, you simply say "X, broadcast your block at 60s, otherwise you will be penalized." 60 seconds later, "Y, broadcast your block at 60s, otherwise you will be penalized." And so on. In this scenario, X and Y are groups of forgers.

Anyways, I won't claim to understand how any of this works, but the important concept to understand is that forging is deterministic, thus you can have blocks come out in exactly 60 second intervals.

Once the network already knows the order of who will forge, then there is no need for a block delay at all.  The network can forge and issue blocks on an as-needed basis in response to pending transactions.

[landomata]

We can easily build a coin on top of Nxt and keep it's price constant with "real coins".

I'd like to see an implementation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) on top of Nxt.

Interesting something similar to Freicoin.

[gs02xzz]

edit: Or is this a terminology problem, because 'gold coins' are no coins?

Hm, looks like this is a problem with my English. BCNext's idea is that NXTs shouldn't be used as mean of exchange.

For me, this ''mean of exchange" means daily commercial payment method. NXT still can be exchanged with the "real coins" (mean of exchange), as the relationship between gold and USD. But how are you able to make the exchange rate between NXT and the "real coins" constant? If the demand for the real coins becomes high, you can issue more real coins to keep the rate constant. But if the demand becomes low, you can't buy back them because there is no central bank. Do you really need to keep it constant?

Why do we need exchange rate between NXT and "real coins" to be constant?

Did you mean that these "real coins" should not be backed by NXT or other commodities (like gold and silver), but they need to be in certain quantity and created in a PoW fashion?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Did you mean that these "real coins" should not be backed by NXT or other commodities (like gold and silver), but they need to be in certain quantity and created in a PoW fashion?

We can use any approach.

[ChuckOne]

We can easily build a coin on top of Nxt and keep it's price constant with "real coins".

I'd like to see an implementation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) on top of Nxt.

Why? And who is going to use it?

[Come-from-Beyond]

We can easily build a coin on top of Nxt and keep it's price constant with "real coins".

I'd like to see an implementation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) on top of Nxt.

Why? And who is going to use it?

Coz I like the idea of such money. Dunno if anyone will implement it.

[ChuckOne]

We can easily build a coin on top of Nxt and keep it's price constant with "real coins".

I'd like to see an implementation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) on top of Nxt.

Why? And who is going to use it?

Coz I like the idea of such money. Dunno if anyone will implement it.

People will be afraid of having their values in this coin.

You could argue that then they will use it for transactions. But why, if I have my values in say XCoin? Why first transferring it to DemurrageCoin in the first place only to transfer it to somebody?

Maybe, you could provide an idea how to incent people to join and develop DemurrageCoin?

[bitcoinpaul]

We can easily build a coin on top of Nxt and keep it's price constant with "real coins".

I'd like to see an implementation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) on top of Nxt.

Why? And who is going to use it?

Coz I like the idea of such money. Dunno if anyone will implement it.

People will be afraid of having their values in this coin.

You could argue that then they will use it for transactions. But why, if I have my values in say XCoin? Why first transferring it to DemurrageCoin in the first place only to transfer it to somebody?

Maybe, you could provide an idea how to incent people to join and develop DemurrageCoin?

I think a DemurrageCoin as a currency only works in a society with only DemurrageCoinsy. But who knows what the implications of the existence of such a coin in the digital world are and what kind of services will be built on top of this coin. Could be a nice experiment.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Maybe, you could provide an idea how to incent people to join and develop DemurrageCoin?

I can't.

[ChuckOne]

Maybe, you could provide an idea how to incent people to join and develop DemurrageCoin?

I can't.

I ask somebody how probably has no idea of cryptocurrencies.

I ask him: imagine there is a currency where you have pay for having money.
He reponded: ah, demurrage.
I ask further: what could somebody encourage to buy such money?
He basically said:
1) if my purchasing power in that system increases more than the demurrage reduces my money
2) if there is some [service] I really want or if I really want to offer a [service] there because when I do not somebody else will and I will lose profit

[mczarnek]

Here is my vision of Nxt:

Every forgers runs a client and tries to make money off of running it.  We run it like a company and try to make ourselves as big and stable as possible.

The programming team makes applications such as the messaging application, the alias registration, etc.  The more Nxt you own, the more it'd be like having stock in our company and you'd be rewarded for forging with enough Nxt to make money doing it. This would encourage a large base of users who would each be making an average of $1 per day just for leaving their computers running.  Users would be encouraged to hoard coins because they know that the more coins they own, the more they'd make off of forging not to mention it being an investment in our company and the future of our coin.

This does not sound at all like that and this is not the Nxt I invested in.. sorry guys you just lost me, think I'm going to compete with you guys instead.. unless enough of the community is in favor of trying to make a profit instead of going this direction?

I'm one of those people BTCNext saw jumping ship, I just sold all my Nxt and BTC too since it seems to be a bubble popping.. and I'm new to this, I haven't been around long and I don't have money I can afford to lose, I'll buy back in when it appears to have bottomed out.  Anyone else who wants to make some money.. please send me a PM. I'm going to need some help.  I've spent every free minute of the last month analyzing how the Nxt backbone and idea allows us to make a very profitable coin.  NEM also seems to be heading that direction. I've got 13 pages of a business plan written up and I haven't finished just yet. I was hoping to convince Nxt to go that direction but this topic and many of the replies to it have me worried that it is not heading in that direction.  Got big plans for my vision of this coin.

I loved Nxt.. if you guys would prefer to try to make Nxt profitable, count me in but with this vision.. later guys, I see this crashing as people start turning off their forging machines left and right and others realize that they won't make much money off of this but I truly wish you all the best!  Maybe I'll hold onto 1000 Nxt because I truly did love this coin.

[jl777]

bye

[usagi1949]

Good luck with buying Nxt back with the price 0,5$.

[opticalcarrier]

Here is my vision of Nxt:

Every forgers runs a client and tries to make money off of running it.  We run it like a company and try to make ourselves as big and stable as possible.

The programming team makes applications such as the messaging application, the alias registration, etc.  The more Nxt you own, the more it'd be like having stock in our company and you'd be rewarded for forging with enough Nxt to make money doing it. This would encourage a large base of users who would each be making an average of $1 per day just for leaving their computers running.  Users would be encouraged to hoard coins because they know that the more coins they own, the more they'd make off of forging not to mention it being an investment in our company and the future of our coin.

This does not sound at all like that and this is not the Nxt I invested in.. sorry guys you just lost me, think I'm going to compete with you guys instead.. unless enough of the community is in favor of trying to make a profit instead of going this direction?

I'm one of those people BTCNext saw jumping ship, I just sold all my Nxt and BTC too since it seems to be a bubble popping.. and I'm new to this, I haven't been around long and I don't have money I can afford to lose, I'll buy back in when it appears to have bottomed out.  Anyone else who wants to make some money.. please send me a PM. I'm going to need some help.  I've spent every free minute of the last month analyzing how the Nxt backbone and idea allows us to make a very profitable coin.  NEM also seems to be heading that direction. I've got 13 pages of a business plan written up and I haven't finished just yet. I was hoping to convince Nxt to go that direction but this topic and many of the replies to it have me worried that it is not heading in that direction.  Got big plans for my vision of this coin.

I loved Nxt.. if you guys would prefer to try to make Nxt profitable, count me in but with this vision.. later guys, I see this crashing as people start turning off their forging machines left and right and others realize that they won't make much money off of this but I truly wish you all the best!  Maybe I'll hold onto 1000 Nxt because I truly did love this coin.

how is it possible that someone has the ability to do all the work you've just described, yet get stuck in short-term tunnel vision where you cannot see the long-term possibilities of using NXT as the infrastructure for a decentralized economy?  sounds like you just wanted to see NXT as just another cryptocurrency that just happened to have different code.

[mczarnek]

Maybe I overreacted a little bit but are we seriously not going to pay the forger's anything? or did I misread that?

I'm perfectly ok having a very small transaction fee, even 0.01Nxt.. IF we try to implement other services, such as the arbitrary messaging, alias registration, distibuted computing, distibuted storage, etc. that would pay the person for their computing time and compensate.  Another idea I really like would be if we could implement project Kharon to the extent where we allow other people to protect their websites using our software, we could easily charge $300 per month per customer and then pay back the forgers using that money.. you could probably pay them a couple bucks per day to maintain the network. 

Also regarding profitably, Nxt transaction fees could even be profitable at approximately 0.05% when we reach bit coins size, so to me it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to charge a small transaction fee..  I mean that is tiny compared to Visa's 2.5%, we are talking $0.5 to send $1000 and we could still be profitable at that level.

No, I love Nxt's code.. but I don't like this direction it's heading if as I understand it, we're going in more of a communist direction of everyone works for free and pays for forging machines to support this but doesn't get compensated for doing it.  I mean it's not like we're talking a lot of money for the people propping up the network but I feel pretty strongly that they should be compensated for it.

Also, I misunderstood this pointed forging apparently.. I thought that people were going to be able to lease their forging power and essentially the people doing the actual forging would pay them say 80% of the money made using their forging power.  But that doesn't sound like what this leased forging power is all about, right?

What do you guys think about the idea of charging for our extra services and essentially using them to subsidize the forgers for handling transactions?  Or do you guys agree that forging machines should be run at a loss by the companies who rely most on Nxt?

How are we going to support distributed computing, distributed storage, etc. in that way?  I mean look at Bitcoin, some people are calling it as big as the 500 biggest supercomputers combined.. we have that same potential to have a huge number of computers on the network and supporting it, and during the majority of the time when they are not processing for Nxt transactions, we pay them to be online and running the distributed computer. If we can pay the forgers enough to make it worth their time, we could easily be the world's largest supercomputer.

Also, I see those services as adding that inheritant value to Nxt that Bitcoin doesn't have, not only do we have the coin, Nxt, but it's essentially a piece of stock in a company that has methods of making money and paying you back for owning those Nxt in the form of essentially dividends.  This is why I do believe that Nxt should indeed be the currency itself, it's backed by something, specifically computing power, unlike all the rest of these cryptos.

Anyway that's my vision, if Nxt doesn't want to go that direction as this is sounding, I seriously might start my own coin.

One more point, deflation is largely a myth:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2013/08/11/now-for-the-truth-the-story-of-japans-lost-decades-is-the-worlds-most-absurd-media-myth/
http://archive.mises.org/8778/austrians-on-deflation/

[ChuckOne]

Maybe I overreacted a little bit but are we seriously not going to pay the forger's anything? or did I misread that?

Slight misunderstanding. We need fees anyway. So, forgers get them.

[opticalcarrier]

Maybe I overreacted a little bit but are we seriously not going to pay the forger's anything? or did I misread that?

no, and i was surprised as well.  but I dont think it will happen as there doesnt appear to be a mass of orgs out there right now rushing in trying to build services on top of NXT like BCNext envisioned.  not to say that it couldnt happen in the future, but to then remove fees altogether would require a consensus that I do not believe it achievable - by the point that there are enough orgs out there that could sustain forging for free per BCNext's plan, the distribution of NXT will surely be at the point to make it impossible.

[ChuckOne]

Maybe I overreacted a little bit but are we seriously not going to pay the forger's anything? or did I misread that?

no, and i was surprised as well.  but I dont think it will happen as there doesnt appear to be a mass of orgs out there right now rushing in trying to build services on top of NXT like BCNext envisioned.  not to say that it couldnt happen in the future, but to then remove fees altogether would require a consensus that I do not believe it achievable - by the point that there are enough orgs out there that could sustain forging for free per BCNext's plan, the distribution of NXT will surely be at the point to make it impossible.

We need fees in order to prevent spamming.