Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind

[ChuckOne]

Besides a demurrage coin, one issue I was thinking of recently was the life-cycle of a NXT account.

Think of it like this:
in the real world there will be a father and a mother supporting their child; by feeding, by teaching etc. When somebody dies, the wealth he acquired over time will be distributed either to the community or to his children. This is how most humans get their initial wealth (as small as it can be) to start with. Family members hodl the wealth of the family.

0) What do you think of heredity? Is it legacy as well? Or can this concept being transferred to NXT/crypotcurrencies?

1) Do we want to have the concept of heredity in NXT?
2) If yes, how?
3) If no, then maybe in a subcoin of NXT?
4) If still no, how to prevent it?
5) If yes, how?

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[mczarnek]

Maybe I overreacted a little bit but are we seriously not going to pay the forger's anything? or did I misread that?

no, and i was surprised as well.  but I dont think it will happen as there doesnt appear to be a mass of orgs out there right now rushing in trying to build services on top of NXT like BCNext envisioned.  not to say that it couldnt happen in the future, but to then remove fees altogether would require a consensus that I do not believe it achievable - by the point that there are enough orgs out there that could sustain forging for free per BCNext's plan, the distribution of NXT will surely be at the point to make it impossible.

It's tricky to build anything on top of Nxt right now such as the distributed computing, unless there was some way of getting into the source code. And that being said, we now have a bunch of clients, we'll get our own version of Bitpay soon enough.. maybe we can get ourselves onto the coinkite terminal (Check it out, I think this is awesome: https://coinkite.com/faq/terminal ) and if not.. well who's willing to bet me that you'll be able to pay with Nxt at more places within the next year than Bitcoin?  I'll willing to wager up to 10,000 Nxt.

Also I seriously I think that operating Nxt as a business is the way to say that we are actually backed by something, which I think is important.  We would have more inherent value because we would run the world's largest super computer, that would actually be usable, and then I also really feel like we should use Nxt as a currency because it is indeed backed by something solid people can believe in, specifically our products and services, rather encouraging people to use coins built on top of Nxt.

Ok.. well I hung onto 150k Nxt, mostly by accident due to them being stuck in transit from dgex.  Which did well overnight, I only sold about 50k.. I'll probably buy back in again. Looks like I got caught up in the panic sell.. I believe in cryptos but I could've seen that bug scaring some people away who didn't consider it as a possibly.

[jl777]

Also, I see those services as adding that inheritant value to Nxt that Bitcoin doesn't have, not only do we have the coin, Nxt, but it's essentially a piece of stock in a company that has methods of making money and paying you back for owning those Nxt in the form of essentially dividends.  This is why I do believe that Nxt should indeed be the currency itself, it's backed by something, specifically computing power, unlike all the rest of these cryptos.

If you just stopped trying to make money with the protocol level of NXT, you will make a ton of money. NXT is designed exactly for people like you to come up with businesses on top of NXT.

Imagine how far the internet would have gone if everytime you used the IP protocol, you were charged a percentage fee. Would the Internet be anything like it is today? Every email, every webpage, every bittorrent, all would have incurred fees. It would have made 99% of the Internet nonviable.

forging is only meant as a transitory carrot. It was similar enough to mining that NXT got enough critical mass. It has served its purpose, it is time for it to go away. it will be 0.1 for a while and then 0.01 and maybe it stays there. The only purpose for minimum fees are to prevent spam. Notice issuing an asset costs 1000NXT. What are the implications of that?

I think you want to make money. Imagine having a NXT based business. Would you rather have that business be on top of the Internet, or Compuserve?

James

P.S. If you dont know about compusurve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompuServe, they had 90%+ of online business, but charged a per hour fee for online time. People said, Internet is much better.

[CIYAM]

P.S. If you dont know about compusurve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompuServe

I do remember CompuServe (and even used it) and just like the initial MSN (when they were trying to kill the internet with their binary protocols) it died.

For sure the forging fees are not going to make people rich but at the same time we do need to ensure that the network is looked after so I think that the fees should always at least make it viable to make a small amount of money forging as that is a useful benefit for the Nxt system.

[bitcoinpaul]

Compuserve, had my first mail address with them!

[CIYAM]

Compuserve, had my first mail address with them!

It's not too late to delete that post (or maybe it is now that I've quoted it).

[mczarnek]

Also, I see those services as adding that inheritant value to Nxt that Bitcoin doesn't have, not only do we have the coin, Nxt, but it's essentially a piece of stock in a company that has methods of making money and paying you back for owning those Nxt in the form of essentially dividends.  This is why I do believe that Nxt should indeed be the currency itself, it's backed by something, specifically computing power, unlike all the rest of these cryptos.

If you just stopped trying to make money with the protocol level of NXT, you will make a ton of money. NXT is designed exactly for people like you to come up with businesses on top of NXT.

Imagine how far the internet would have gone if everytime you used the IP protocol, you were charged a percentage fee. Would the Internet be anything like it is today? Every email, every webpage, every bittorrent, all would have incurred fees. It would have made 99% of the Internet nonviable.

forging is only meant as a transitory carrot. It was similar enough to mining that NXT got enough critical mass. It has served its purpose, it is time for it to go away. it will be 0.1 for a while and then 0.01 and maybe it stays there. The only purpose for minimum fees are to prevent spam. Notice issuing an asset costs 1000NXT. What are the implications of that?

I think you want to make money. Imagine having a NXT based business. Would you rather have that business be on top of the Internet, or Compuserve?

James

P.S. If you dont know about compusurve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompuServe, they had 90%+ of online business, but charged a per hour fee for online time. People said, Internet is much better.

Excellent way of putting it.. ok I'm convinced there is something to the idea... however, we do need to come up with something, and I'm thinking distributed computing will be our killer app, that will allow us to feed the network on a more consistent basis.  We might need a programming language specifically tailored to our purposes.

Ok.. interesting..  going to have to think about the implications of this a little bit.. definitely a very different direction than I would've taken it.

What do you think about using Nxt as money however?  I kind of think that we can still use the units of Nxt as money, why build other types of money on top of Nxt?  For that matter if Nxt won't be used as the currency part of the equation.. how does that affect it's value?

Personally, I prefer a deflationary currency and I don't think that it would cause problems, it only causing problems if it's a debt based currency instead of one backed by something and the government tries to artificially introduce inflation.

[jl777]

Also, I see those services as adding that inheritant value to Nxt that Bitcoin doesn't have, not only do we have the coin, Nxt, but it's essentially a piece of stock in a company that has methods of making money and paying you back for owning those Nxt in the form of essentially dividends.  This is why I do believe that Nxt should indeed be the currency itself, it's backed by something, specifically computing power, unlike all the rest of these cryptos.

If you just stopped trying to make money with the protocol level of NXT, you will make a ton of money. NXT is designed exactly for people like you to come up with businesses on top of NXT.

Imagine how far the internet would have gone if everytime you used the IP protocol, you were charged a percentage fee. Would the Internet be anything like it is today? Every email, every webpage, every bittorrent, all would have incurred fees. It would have made 99% of the Internet nonviable.

forging is only meant as a transitory carrot. It was similar enough to mining that NXT got enough critical mass. It has served its purpose, it is time for it to go away. it will be 0.1 for a while and then 0.01 and maybe it stays there. The only purpose for minimum fees are to prevent spam. Notice issuing an asset costs 1000NXT. What are the implications of that?

I think you want to make money. Imagine having a NXT based business. Would you rather have that business be on top of the Internet, or Compuserve?

James

P.S. If you dont know about compusurve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompuServe, they had 90%+ of online business, but charged a per hour fee for online time. People said, Internet is much better.

Excellent way of putting it.. ok I'm convinced there is something to the idea... however, we do need to come up with something, and I'm thinking distributed computing will be our killer app, that will allow us to feed the network on a more consistent basis.  We might need a programming language specifically tailored to our purposes.

Ok.. interesting..  going to have to think about the implications of this a little bit.. definitely a very different direction than I would've taken it.

What do you think about using Nxt as money however?  I kind of think that we can still use the units of Nxt as money, why build other types of money on top of Nxt?  For that matter if Nxt won't be used as the currency part of the equation.. how does that affect it's value?

Personally, I prefer a deflationary currency and I don't think that it would cause problems, it only causing problems if it's a debt based currency instead of one backed by something and the government tries to artificially introduce inflation.

The "problem" with using NXT as money is that there are only 1 billion of them. Any fiat is in the trillions. So, the best way is to create a NXT Asset, each up to 1 billion. You can make each of these represent whatever you want. Server CPU hours for grid computing, actual fiat with 1:1 conversion, turtles, etc.

NXT will become the reserve currency of both crypto and post-fiat economies. What that means is that everything will have its price denominated in NXT. Since there is a fixed and finite amount of NXT, it will act like gold (that cant be mined anymore). As the reference currency, there are a nearly infinite number of price points that solve the equation of relative pricing of all the assets against each other. What the exact price will end up is really more of a function of the total GDP of the NXT economy. The more value that is represented by all the NXT Assets, the more each NXT will be worth.

Inflation cannot happen with NXT, that is why it is appropriate for it to be the reserve currency. As the NXT GDP rises, even .01 or .0001 NXT fee per transaction will more than offset any costs for running a server if you have any amount of NXT. I would imagine that any business that is basing its model on NXT would make sure it stocked up on NXT before announcing its services that will in turn boost the value of NXT, especially if it is a killer app.

All of the Asset issuance fees, AM and payment fees recirculate with 100% efficiency. It is really quite an amazing system design.

My advice is stock up on NXT. Figure out what your killer app is. Figure out how to parcel it into an NXT asset. Complete killer app, issue assets, make money. All while your initial investment in NXT is growing in value.
Imagine thousands of businesses doing this.

James

[ChuckOne]

What do you think of the idea of the last will of an account?

[jl777]

What do you think of the idea of the last will of an account?

Sure, not a bad idea, but not need to put this into protocol. Just use existing methods for inheritance.

[bitcoinpaul]

Compuserve, had my first mail address with them!

It's not too late to delete that post (or maybe it is now that I've quoted it).

And now, i quoted it. Shit...

[mczarnek]

The "problem" with using NXT as money is that there are only 1 billion of them. Any fiat is in the trillions. So, the best way is to create a NXT Asset, each up to 1 billion. You can make each of these represent whatever you want. Server CPU hours for grid computing, actual fiat with 1:1 conversion, turtles, etc.

NXT will become the reserve currency of both crypto and post-fiat economies. What that means is that everything will have its price denominated in NXT. Since there is a fixed and finite amount of NXT, it will act like gold (that cant be mined anymore). As the reference currency, there are a nearly infinite number of price points that solve the equation of relative pricing of all the assets against each other. What the exact price will end up is really more of a function of the total GDP of the NXT economy. The more value that is represented by all the NXT Assets, the more each NXT will be worth.

Inflation cannot happen with NXT, that is why it is appropriate for it to be the reserve currency. As the NXT GDP rises, even .01 or .0001 NXT fee per transaction will more than offset any costs for running a server if you have any amount of NXT. I would imagine that any business that is basing its model on NXT would make sure it stocked up on NXT before announcing its services that will in turn boost the value of NXT, especially if it is a killer app.

All of the Asset issuance fees, AM and payment fees recirculate with 100% efficiency. It is really quite an amazing system design.

My advice is stock up on NXT. Figure out what your killer app is. Figure out how to parcel it into an NXT asset. Complete killer app, issue assets, make money. All while your initial investment in NXT is growing in value.
Imagine thousands of businesses doing this.

James

Sure 1 billion Nxt can be used as currency, look at the Satoshi.. we can just subdivide Nxt into say 0.0001 Nxt = 1 credit and then 1 Nxt would be equivalent to $0.12, if it grew to be the same size as the US dollar.  Why not, I feel like Nxt itself has to have some inherit value to it and using it as currency where people would keep their money as Nxt would be a good way to do it.

Because here's my thing, if we're not using Nxt, then why would someone making such a new coin stock up on a bunch of Nxt?  Once we allow it to be further subdivided, why not buy 10,000 Nxt, and subdivide it into 100 million small parts and call each one of those tiny parts 1 coin of this other currency.. I mean somehow you'd need to factor in that Nxt would be required to pay some very tiny fee to the forgers to prevent spamming but I don't see any limit.

If we do distributed computing, I think that would need to be built it right into Nxt, not on top of it but I could see distributed computing, and distributed storage, and other apps being profitable and paying the forgers to forge, seeing as those have already been propsed.. I guess I won't give up hope on that ending up integrated into this coin yet.

Thanks for the replies James!

Wish BCNext would come on here himself and find some way that we could discuss these ideas directly with him.. I guess him throwing out the ideas and letting the community decide which direction to actually go isn't a bad idea either though.

[ChuckOne]

What do you think of the idea of the last will of an account?

Sure, not a bad idea, but not need to put this into protocol. Just use existing methods for inheritance.

What exactly do you mean by existing methods? Notaries?

[ChuckOne]

I still think NXT is made for the people and should address their very personal needs like supporting the family, financial security, legal certainty and the like. This is even more important in case somebody dies.

In NXT nobody should trust anybody. But people need trust. So, what I have in mind would be decentralized notary (DN). A third party bound by cryptography and algos.

An account holder could tell the DN to sign something and to do something for him in a pre-defined future:
 - to pay amount x_i to some accounts
 - to send encrypted messages to certain accounts in order to reveal knowledge
 - to execute a script
Everything the DN does is invisible to everybody except those how own the keys.

Use-cases could be:
 - when a father wants to hand down his fortune to equal parts to his two sons
 - signing documents like contracts, birth certificates etc.
 - when a real-world corporation changes leadership

BCNext said: Trust nobody.

That's certainly the best advice somebody could give. However, another smart guy told me this:

In the end, you have to trust somebody.

[bitcoinpaul]

I still think NXT is made for the people and should address their very personal needs like supporting the family, financial security, legal certainty and the like. This is even more important in case somebody dies.

In NXT nobody should trust anybody. But people need trust. So, what I have in mind would be decentralized notary (DN). A third party bound by cryptography and algos.

An account holder could tell the DN to sign something and to do something for him in a pre-defined future:
 - to pay amount x_i to some accounts
 - to send encrypted messages to certain accounts in order to reveal knowledge
 - to execute a script
Everything the DN does is invisible to everybody except those how own the keys.

Use-cases could be:
 - when a father wants to hand down his fortune to equal parts to his two sons
 - signing documents like contracts, birth certificates etc.
 - when a real-world corporation changes leadership

BCNext said: Trust nobody.

That's certainly the best advice somebody could give. However, another smart guy told me this:

In the end, you have to trust somebody.

Isn't this smart contract stuff?

[xyzzyx]

The "problem" with using NXT as money is that there are only 1 billion of them. Any fiat is in the trillions. So, the best way is to create a NXT Asset, each up to 1 billion. You can make each of these represent whatever you want. Server CPU hours for grid computing, actual fiat with 1:1 conversion, turtles, etc.

I'm not sure if the best way to have more coins on top of Nxt is to use the asset exchange, or build a new coin on top and use AM for storing the new coin's blocks.  Both methods will need to be explored, I think.

Common knowledge is that there are ~1 billion NXT.  Take a look at the source and you'll see a bunch of multiplications by 100L -- adjusting for displaying/thinking in cents.   There are actually ~100 billion NXT.  Every time you send 1 NXT, you're actually sending a bundle of 100 NXT.

Inflation cannot happen with NXT,

Sure it can.  Everyone just has to agree that the multiplier is now larger than 100L.  If everyone agrees the multiplier is now 1000L, there will be an order of magnitude more NXT than right now.

It's a pain in the butt at the moment since it requires everyone to update their software with a hard-coded change.  There's no reason in the future the multiplier can't be a variable, however, and the size is agreed to by software voting.

[ZeroTheGreat]

Common knowledge is that there are ~1 billion NXT.  Take a look at the source and you'll see a bunch of multiplications by 100L -- adjusting for displaying/thinking in cents.   There are actually ~100 billion NXT.  Every time you send 1 NXT, you're actually sending a bundle of 100 NXT.

Nope. Bundle of some units, say, 0.01-NXTs or NXTcents. 100s of it = NXTs.

Right now Jean-Luc working on that - to implement easy divisibility for cents and for any needed zeros after point in fututre instead of current model.

[xyzzyx]

Common knowledge is that there are ~1 billion NXT.  Take a look at the source and you'll see a bunch of multiplications by 100L -- adjusting for displaying/thinking in cents.   There are actually ~100 billion NXT.  Every time you send 1 NXT, you're actually sending a bundle of 100 NXT.

Nope. Bundle of some units, say, 0.01-NXTs or NXTcents. 100s of it = NXTs.

Right now Jean-Luc working on that - to implement easy divisibility for cents and for any needed zeros after point in fututre instead of current model.

In what way, other than perceptual, is a fixed point representation of 100.00 different than the integer 10000?

Tomato/Tomato

[jl777]

The "problem" with using NXT as money is that there are only 1 billion of them. Any fiat is in the trillions. So, the best way is to create a NXT Asset, each up to 1 billion. You can make each of these represent whatever you want. Server CPU hours for grid computing, actual fiat with 1:1 conversion, turtles, etc.

I'm not sure if the best way to have more coins on top of Nxt is to use the asset exchange, or build a new coin on top and use AM for storing the new coin's blocks.  Both methods will need to be explored, I think.

Common knowledge is that there are ~1 billion NXT.  Take a look at the source and you'll see a bunch of multiplications by 100L -- adjusting for displaying/thinking in cents.   There are actually ~100 billion NXT.  Every time you send 1 NXT, you're actually sending a bundle of 100 NXT.

Inflation cannot happen with NXT,

Sure it can.  Everyone just has to agree that the multiplier is now larger than 100L.  If everyone agrees the multiplier is now 1000L, there will be an order of magnitude more NXT than right now.

It's a pain in the butt at the moment since it requires everyone to update their software with a hard-coded change.  There's no reason in the future the multiplier can't be a variable, however, and the size is agreed to by software voting.

I am thinking that using AE and AM is the best way to go, still working out details

Anything that has the same effect as a stock split is not really inflationary in the sense I am talking about. By inflation I mean whatever amount of NXT you have is suddenly (or gradually) worth not as much due to dilution. What you describe increases the nominal number of NXT, but whatever percentage of NXT you had is unchanged. So it is neither inflationary or deflationary

[xyzzyx]

Anything that has the same effect as a stock split is not really inflationary in the sense I am talking about. By inflation I mean whatever amount of NXT you have is suddenly (or gradually) worth not as much due to dilution. What you describe increases the nominal number of NXT, but whatever percentage of NXT you had is unchanged. So it is neither inflationary or deflationary

Ah. Ok.  Makes sense.