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Author Topic: The Two Laws of All Civilization?  (Read 3635 times)
Hawker
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September 29, 2011, 07:20:04 PM
 #21

...snip...
Well its not how it can ever be either.  Communities will not allow pollution to ruin their properties absent huge amounts of force.

What you've said has nothing to do with that video. You should watch it again.

I don't like videos.  I'd happily read a transcript but listening so someone laboriously building a case from a false premise for an hour is just too much to ask. 

Its worth your watching the first 30 seconds again though to get his concept of "homesteading" the noise.

That's all I wanted. That's why I didn't link you to the start of the video. That's how it's relevant to the first post.

Ah,  First post is a parable.  I'm too slow for long-winded parables :S

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September 30, 2011, 01:17:22 AM
 #22

Its worth your watching the first 30 seconds again though to get his concept of "homesteading" the noise.

Homesteading the noise. How funny. Notice how it's all about a race to see who can fuck up everything before someone else does?

Just imagine: "Well, I exploited and destroyed everything before you did, so that means I maintain the rights to do all future exploitation and abuse!"
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September 30, 2011, 02:41:09 AM
 #23

Its worth your watching the first 30 seconds again though to get his concept of "homesteading" the noise.

Homesteading the noise. How funny. Notice how it's all about a race to see who can fuck up everything before someone else does?

Just imagine: "Well, I exploited and destroyed everything before you did, so that means I maintain the rights to do all future exploitation and abuse!"

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office. If he would have complained immediately and shown the noise to be detrimental, he could have had his quiet. It's not a race towards noise any more than it's a race to quiet.
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September 30, 2011, 03:06:17 AM
 #24

Its worth your watching the first 30 seconds again though to get his concept of "homesteading" the noise.

Homesteading the noise. How funny. Notice how it's all about a race to see who can fuck up everything before someone else does?

Just imagine: "Well, I exploited and destroyed everything before you did, so that means I maintain the rights to do all future exploitation and abuse!"

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office. If he would have complained immediately and shown the noise to be detrimental, he could have had his quiet. It's not a race towards noise any more than it's a race to quiet.

You do understand what is wrong with your argument, don't you? Again, I'll give you the opportunity to refine it or improve it. But I doubt you'll try, and instead come back with a smug retort about how I have nothing and your argument is perfect. Feel free. You'll only be prolonging your foolish belief in your position.

So, is that your final (and to you, no doubt, decisive) argument?

Want a hint? It has to do with the room that the doctor originally practiced medicine in.
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September 30, 2011, 07:45:05 AM
 #25

Its worth your watching the first 30 seconds again though to get his concept of "homesteading" the noise.

Homesteading the noise. How funny. Notice how it's all about a race to see who can fuck up everything before someone else does?

Just imagine: "Well, I exploited and destroyed everything before you did, so that means I maintain the rights to do all future exploitation and abuse!"

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office. If he would have complained immediately and shown the noise to be detrimental, he could have had his quiet. It's not a race towards noise any more than it's a race to quiet.

Um no.  Even if the doctor didn't care about the noise, died of old age and left the house to someone else, the new person would be able to point out that the noise was excessive even after all those years.


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September 30, 2011, 11:21:59 AM
 #26

Its worth your watching the first 30 seconds again though to get his concept of "homesteading" the noise.

Homesteading the noise. How funny. Notice how it's all about a race to see who can fuck up everything before someone else does?

Just imagine: "Well, I exploited and destroyed everything before you did, so that means I maintain the rights to do all future exploitation and abuse!"

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office. If he would have complained immediately and shown the noise to be detrimental, he could have had his quiet. It's not a race towards noise any more than it's a race to quiet.

You do understand what is wrong with your argument, don't you? Again, I'll give you the opportunity to refine it or improve it. But I doubt you'll try, and instead come back with a smug retort about how I have nothing and your argument is perfect. Feel free. You'll only be prolonging your foolish belief in your position.

So, is that your final (and to you, no doubt, decisive) argument?

Want a hint? It has to do with the room that the doctor originally practiced medicine in.

You're the one acting self-satisfied and smug. Make your point and stop wasting my time.
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September 30, 2011, 07:26:30 PM
 #27

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office.

He didn't care until he moved his office? Then why did he move his office?
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September 30, 2011, 07:43:12 PM
 #28

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office.

He didn't care until he moved his office? Then why did he move his office?

It doesn't matter if he cared about the noise or not.  If its too loud for normal use of his property and the building next door is not zoned for industrial use, he can have it stopped. 

The law exists to provide peaceful resolution to disputes such as this. 

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September 30, 2011, 07:58:38 PM
 #29

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office.

He didn't care until he moved his office? Then why did he move his office?

It doesn't matter if he cared about the noise or not.  If its too loud for normal use of his property and the building next door is not zoned for industrial use, he can have it stopped.  

The law exists to provide peaceful resolution to disputes such as this.  

Exactly. But their arguments are so bizarre, and it's interesting to draw them into their own logic.

Zoning laws are designed for issues like this: commercial, residential, retail, industrial, etc. However, common sense should prevail as well. Running machine shop type tools in your home can be ok under certain circumstances, such as when it's a hobby and not full time, the tools are in the garage, and the garages are designed such that they don't share a common wall with another resident's living space. If you can run a mill or other such type of machine in your living space without actually bothering your neighbor, then more power to you. This is why we have judges. The fact of the matter is, in that video, both the speaker's viewpoint and Ronald Coase's viewpoint were a bit nutty. But it's par for the course to be exposed to these viewpoints in this forum, where prudent thinking takes a backseat to most everything else.
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September 30, 2011, 08:01:47 PM
 #30

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office.

He didn't care until he moved his office? Then why did he move his office?

It doesn't matter if he cared about the noise or not.  If its too loud for normal use of his property and the building next door is not zoned for industrial use, he can have it stopped.  

The law exists to provide peaceful resolution to disputes such as this.  

Exactly. But their arguments are so bizarre, and it's interesting to draw them into their own logic.

Zoning laws are designed for issues like this: commercial, residential, retail, industrial, etc. However, common sense should prevail as well. Running machine shop type tools in your home can be ok under certain circumstances, such as when it's a hobby and not full time, the tools are in the garage, and the garages are designed such that they don't share a common wall with another resident's living space. If you can run a mill or other such type of machine in your living space without actually bothering your neighbor, then more power to you. This is why we have judges. The fact of the matter is, in that video, both the speaker's viewpoint and Ronald Coase's viewpoint were a bit nutty. But it's par for the course to be exposed to these viewpoints in this forum, where prudent thinking takes a backseat to most everything else.

Huston Texas has exactly zero zoning laws.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
FirstAscent
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September 30, 2011, 08:09:03 PM
 #31

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office.

He didn't care until he moved his office? Then why did he move his office?

It doesn't matter if he cared about the noise or not.  If its too loud for normal use of his property and the building next door is not zoned for industrial use, he can have it stopped.  

The law exists to provide peaceful resolution to disputes such as this.  

Exactly. But their arguments are so bizarre, and it's interesting to draw them into their own logic.

Zoning laws are designed for issues like this: commercial, residential, retail, industrial, etc. However, common sense should prevail as well. Running machine shop type tools in your home can be ok under certain circumstances, such as when it's a hobby and not full time, the tools are in the garage, and the garages are designed such that they don't share a common wall with another resident's living space. If you can run a mill or other such type of machine in your living space without actually bothering your neighbor, then more power to you. This is why we have judges. The fact of the matter is, in that video, both the speaker's viewpoint and Ronald Coase's viewpoint were a bit nutty. But it's par for the course to be exposed to these viewpoints in this forum, where prudent thinking takes a backseat to most everything else.

Huston Texas has exactly zero zoning laws.

Sorry, but it's not like you think. Houston has very strict parking limitations which can relate to vehicle weight and length, as well as strict lot size regulations, and a government which backs up the contracts made in the absence of the zoning laws. It is interesting, but it still results in anomalies, and HOAs are pretty much the rule of thumb - trading one tax for another.
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September 30, 2011, 08:12:06 PM
 #32

...snip...

Huston Texas has exactly zero zoning laws.

Really ?

http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/cities/houston.htm

http://governor.state.tx.us/music/guides/houston_sound_ordinance

What's that then?

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September 30, 2011, 08:27:35 PM
 #33

The first law is ridiculous and the second is actually 2 laws..#1 not to kill over ideas(dont censor), and #2 respect personal private property.

The noise polluter is winning the battle of ideas, thats all. The 'innocent' dudes still have all strategies at their disposal, including violating both of those laws.
If you have a real world example, you can see that the 'losing' side is very weak....and very lazy. Their strategy for winning is absolutely terrible as well....so in a sense its a good thing thats happening to them.

The noise polluter has some serious flaws that can be exploited....now the first thing that anyone credible would say is that I cant tell you what those are. 2 reasons: 1) The high value of stealth, and 2) the principles of the asymmetrics of will....by definition that means all bets are off and logic is not superior...its all shades of grey at that point. You could compare a ninjitsu asymmetrist to an Al-Q asymmetrist...its all spooky whatever happens.

If I were handing out advice to those losers, I would tell them you can only control yourself. Start from there....or watch No country for Old Men and in particular what Woody Harrelson tells "Moss" at the hospital.

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September 30, 2011, 09:04:45 PM
 #34

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office. If he would have complained immediately and shown the noise to be detrimental, he could have had his quiet. It's not a race towards noise any more than it's a race to quiet.

The same could be said of a female who was "raped" but didn't complain the first time. By her "silence" or unwillingness to report the abuse, the abuse became, by default, consensual. I don't like that. How long does one wait until it it is considered consensual? Likewise, if she didn't report it the first time, can she be "raped" subsequent times by the same man? Does the lack of a complaint imply consent?

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NghtRppr
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September 30, 2011, 10:08:31 PM
 #35

No, it's not. If you want silence, you just have to be there demanding silence. In the scenario, the doctor moved in first and then the guy next door started making noise but the doctor didn't care until he moved his office.

He didn't care until he moved his office? Then why did he move his office?

How am I supposed to know? Am I the doctor? For whatever reason, he wanted his office relocated to where the noise then became a problem.
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September 30, 2011, 10:23:38 PM
 #36

Thou shalt always be honest and faithful
to the provider of thy nookie.

&

Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course
they pray to a different invisible man than you.

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October 04, 2011, 07:39:46 AM
 #37

It's always a survival of the fittest when it came to civilizations. The strong will prey on the weak. Just ask look what the Mongols did. Just look at the endless treaties early Americans promised to the indians. I like to quote this one person's new dogma that is followed by everybody now.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." -Aleister Crowley

Hawker
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October 04, 2011, 08:15:22 AM
 #38

It's always a survival of the fittest when it came to civilizations. The strong will prey on the weak. Just ask look what the Mongols did. Just look at the endless treaties early Americans promised to the indians. I like to quote this one person's new dogma that is followed by everybody now.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." -Aleister Crowley

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley#Thelema

Are you sure you understand what context he said that and what he meant by it?

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October 06, 2011, 11:54:00 AM
 #39

- factory annoys enough people
- people are anarchist and have no respect for law
- people are not living buddhas and have finite patience

- multiple attempts at settling the issue by negotiation fail
- some neigbours move away to undisclosed locations, some of them rather pissed off
- somebody spray-paints "sabotage?" on a nearby wall
- somehow, the factory keeps losing power and water supply, roads keep getting sowed with tire-breaking scrap metal, equipment accumulates damage

- factory continues to annoy enough people
- somebody spray-paints "BtFD" on a nearby wall
- somebody interprets it as "Burn the Factory/Fucker Down" and does so
- zoning laws?

Edit: P.S.

Two alternative laws:

- there are no fixed laws
- perhaps it's worth the effort to behave reasonably? :D
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October 06, 2011, 01:35:29 PM
 #40

- factory annoys enough people
- people are anarchist and have no respect for law
- people are not living buddhas and have finite patience

- multiple attempts at settling the issue by negotiation fail
- some neigbours move away to undisclosed locations, some of them rather pissed off
- somebody spray-paints "sabotage?" on a nearby wall
- somehow, the factory keeps losing power and water supply, roads keep getting sowed with tire-breaking scrap metal, equipment accumulates damage

- factory continues to annoy enough people
- somebody spray-paints "BtFD" on a nearby wall
- somebody interprets it as "Burn the Factory/Fucker Down" and does so
- zoning laws?

Edit: P.S.

Two alternative laws:

- there are no fixed laws
- perhaps it's worth the effort to behave reasonably? Cheesy

What you describe is the reason zoning laws exist.  Its not good that people have to resort to violence in order to protect their homes or their premises.  For both the homeowner and the factory owner, a zoning law that settles the issue before the factory is built is the best option.


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