The Two Laws of All Civilization?

[FirstAscent]

The Two Laws of All Civilization

1) Do all that you have agreed to do.

2) Do not encroach upon another's person or property.

This shall be the whole of the law.

Not really clear on the above.

Let's say MoonShadow lives in a house that has access via Blueberry Street. Next to him is a large lot owned by MysteriousMan. MysteriousMan brings in earthmoving equipment one day, and commences grading. Up goes a factory, shipping and receiving docks, and machinery for metal stamping, operated by compressed air. The machinery and compressors run all day and night. Trucks come and go all night long.

MysteriousMan never signed any contracts with MoonShadow. He never entered into any agreements with MoonShadow. Nonetheless, MoonShadow's life is now miserable. He attempts to retain legal counsel and file a lawsuit through the biggest private court system there is. Along the way, he discovers that his court of choice happens to have MysteriousMan as a big customer - I mean, they do a lot of business with MysteriousMan. Bummer.

Anyway, as it turns out, MysteriousMan is one of those semi rare types who just doesn't care about respecting the rights of others. I personally couldn't just do that to a neighbor, but you know how it goes. Some people can and do.

Guess what? MysteriousMan, being the big conglomerate he is, naturally saw fit to have one of his companies buy Blueberry Street prior to building his factory. It only makes sense. Fortunately, MoonShadow has a ten year contract on the tolls and rates required to use the road. Unfortunately, the contract expires in six months. Bummer.

MoonShadow wants to move. Unfortunately, his home value is sliding like crazy, and he doesn't know exactly what to do. Court seems the only option.

As it turns out, MysteriousMan is probably even a bigger asshole than you can imagine. You see, it's just not profitable to pay out to every resident who puts up a fuss - there are just too many of them. He employs a number of strategies:

- Don't pay at all. I mean, what's going to happen? Are men in blue suits going to show up and kidnap him? That's not acceptable! How dare he be forced to pay for doing what he wants on his own land! It's as if he's being regulated.

- Sometimes a beheaded head shows up in the refrigerator of the most annoying and bothersome individuals. It's just business - don't take it personally.

- Sometimes, he'll just buy your property, at 66 percent its former value. Just go away.

Let's take a look at what MysteriousMan has done here. He makes a lot of noise. His trucks create potholes, make the street unsafe, and make noise. But that's not aggression. It's not trespassing. And regarding the trucks - it's his street. As for the noise, it doesn't really affect people beyond a certain range, so there isn't much opportunity for a class action lawsuit. What about a boycott? Won't work. MysteriousMan sells his stuff on the other side of the world through a different name and company.

As for the beheaded head? Well, as it turns out, it just happened to be an acquaintance of MoonShadow's, whom certain individuals noticed some extremely angry words transpire between the two the day before. Scary stuff.

Anyway, MysteriousMan is a fictional character that embodies a lot of elements from real people and organizations out there in the real world.

[hugolp]

I know what you are trying to say: MysteriousMan is a metaphore for the government!

[FirstAscent]

I know what you are trying to say: MysteriousMan is a metaphore for the government!

If you say so. Kind of interesting how he functions within the guidelines of MoonShadow's anti-government laws.

[iamzill]

The Two Laws of All Civilization

1) Do all that you have agreed to do.

2) Do not encroach upon another's person or property.

This shall be the whole of the law.

Not really clear on the above.

Let's say MoonShadow lives in a house that has access via Blueberry Street. Next to him is a large lot owned by MysteriousMan. MysteriousMan brings in earthmoving equipment one day, and commences grading. Up goes a factory, shipping and receiving docks, and machinery for metal stamping, operated by compressed air. The machinery and compressors run all day and night. Trucks come and go all night long.

MysteriousMan never signed any contracts with MoonShadow. He never entered into any agreements with MoonShadow. Nonetheless, MoonShadow's life is now miserable. He attempts to retain legal counsel and file a lawsuit through the biggest private court system there is. Along the way, he discovers that his court of choice happens to have MysteriousMan as a big customer - I mean, they do a lot of business with MysteriousMan. Bummer.

Anyway, as it turns out, MysteriousMan is one of those semi rare types who just doesn't care about respecting the rights of others. I personally couldn't just do that to a neighbor, but you know how it goes. Some people can and do.

Guess what? MysteriousMan, being the big conglomerate he is, naturally saw fit to have one of his companies buy Blueberry Street prior to building his factory. It only makes sense. Fortunately, MoonShadow has a ten year contract on the tolls and rates required to use the road. Unfortunately, the contract expires in six months. Bummer.

MoonShadow wants to move. Unfortunately, his home value is sliding like crazy, and he doesn't know exactly what to do. Court seems the only option.

As it turns out, MysteriousMan is probably even a bigger asshole than you can imagine. You see, it's just not profitable to pay out to every resident who puts up a fuss - there are just too many of them. He employs a number of strategies:

- Don't pay at all. I mean, what's going to happen? Are men in blue suits going to show up and kidnap him? That's not acceptable! How dare he be forced to pay for doing what he wants on his own land! It's as if he's being regulated.

- Sometimes a beheaded head shows up in the refrigerator of the most annoying and bothersome individuals. It's just business - don't take it personally.

- Sometimes, he'll just buy your property, at 66 percent its former value. Just go away.

Let's take a look at what MysteriousMan has done here. He makes a lot of noise. His trucks create potholes, make the street unsafe, and make noise. But that's not aggression. It's not trespassing. And regarding the trucks - it's his street. As for the noise, it doesn't really affect people beyond a certain range, so there isn't much opportunity for a class action lawsuit. What about a boycott? Won't work. MysteriousMan sells his stuff on the other side of the world through a different name and company.

As for the beheaded head? Well, as it turns out, it just happened to be an acquaintance of MoonShadow's, whom certain individuals noticed some extremely angry words transpire between the two the day before. Scary stuff.

Anyway, MysteriousMan is a fictional character that embodies a lot of elements from real people and organizations out there in the real world.

So let me get this straight, you're arguing that this noise-polluting, criminal-hiring, extortionist mega-conglomerate can survive for more than a quarter in the free market?

Without government bailouts this corporation won't last more than a month.

[FirstAscent]

So let me get this straight, you're arguing that this noise-polluting, criminal-hiring, extortionist mega-conglomerate can survive for more than a quarter in the free market?

Without government bailouts this corporation won't last more than a month.

Let's say he doesn't hire criminals. He's within his rights to buy the road and put his trucks on it day and night. He's within his rights to change the road contract upon expiration. It's not clear to me where the creation of noise represents trespassing, or destruction of property on MoonShadow's property. It's not clear to me if MoonShadow can win this case in court, given MysteriousMan's prior and extensive use of the bigger courts. And it sounds like everyone really wants to see this guy regulated.

[NghtRppr]

It's not clear to me where the creation of noise represents trespassing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6glPCLm0E#t=29m15s

[FirstAscent]

It's not clear to me where the creation of noise represents trespassing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6glPCLm0E#t=29m15s

Not really interested in watching videos.

[NghtRppr]

It's not clear to me where the creation of noise represents trespassing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6glPCLm0E#t=29m15s

Not really interested in watching videos.

You really only need to watch a couple of minutes but if you don't want to learn anything, fine.

[Hawker]

It's not clear to me where the creation of noise represents trespassing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6glPCLm0E#t=29m15s

If the first 30 seconds are anything to go by, he has no understanding of the law and has never lived in a city.  Noise is regulated like any other form of pollution.  To say that you have "homesteaded the noise" by creating noise pollution is bizarre.  If you want to make noise over a level that people find disturbing in their properties, you need to convince the local community that its in their interests to put up with it.

[JA37]

Can't wait to see where this is going.   

[AyeYo]

So let me get this straight, you're arguing that this noise-polluting, criminal-hiring, extortionist mega-conglomerate can survive for more than a quarter in the free market?

Without government bailouts this corporation won't last more than a month.

Why does that seem so far fetched?  It happens all the time.

Look up a little history of Latin America and see what corporations had going on down there.  They hired hit men to kill union bosses, sub-contracted for torture and kidnap of employees that disagreed with them, and many other such blatantly illegal/immoral activities.

How is the market going to punish them when 99.9995% of the people that comprise the market have no idea this stuff took place because they're scattered all over the world, but these events happened only in a specific area?  I bet YOU don't know the history I'm speaking of.  I bet YOU don't even know what company I'm referring to.  I bet YOU can't even find it on Google without knowing EXACTLY what you're looking for.  I'll give a hint, they're still around and thriving - without a single bailout.

[NghtRppr]

It's not clear to me where the creation of noise represents trespassing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6glPCLm0E#t=29m15s

If the first 30 seconds are anything to go by, he has no understanding of the law and has never lived in a city.  Noise is regulated like any other form of pollution.  To say that you have "homesteaded the noise" by creating noise pollution is bizarre.  If you want to make noise over a level that people find disturbing in their properties, you need to convince the local community that its in their interests to put up with it.

This thread isn't about how the law currently is.

[FredericBastiat]

If the first 30 seconds are anything to go by, he has no understanding of the law and has never lived in a city.  Noise is regulated like any other form of pollution.  To say that you have "homesteaded the noise" by creating noise pollution is bizarre.  If you want to make noise over a level that people find disturbing in their properties, you need to convince the local community that its in their interests to put up with it.

I'd have to admit, even though I've read a few things about it (Rothbard), it does seem a bit esoteric. I can see homesteading an object or a parcel of land, but homesteading an activity seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Notwithstanding, I don't think an individual who wants to move into downtown Tokyo could reasonbly argue that the light and noise pollution could be curbed just because he's annoyed by it. That's a bit harder to wrap my mind around.

To flip the coin on the other side, we could also argue that if I were shooting bullets over a wide unowned section of land for a time, doesn't mean I get to continue doing that when my neigbors move in and were unawares of the firing range easement/homesteading "right". Question is, for how long do I get to engage in bullet projection before it becomes mine, and when do I lose that right? Shooting less, sporatic fire, stop for a year, start again, write it on a piece of paper and declare it at the registrars office?

[MoonShadow]

So let me get this straight, you're arguing that this noise-polluting, criminal-hiring, extortionist mega-conglomerate can survive for more than a quarter in the free market?

Without government bailouts this corporation won't last more than a month.

Why does that seem so far fetched?  It happens all the time.

Look up a little history of Latin America and see what corporations had going on down there.  They hired hit men to kill union bosses, sub-contracted for torture and kidnap of employees that disagreed with them, and many other such blatantly illegal/immoral activities.

How is the market going to punish them when 99.9995% of the people that comprise the market have no idea this stuff took place because they're scattered all over the world, but these events happened only in a specific area?  I bet YOU don't know the history I'm speaking of.  I bet YOU don't even know what company I'm referring to.  I bet YOU can't even find it on Google without knowing EXACTLY what you're looking for.  I'll give a hint, they're still around and thriving - without a single bailout.

Coca Cola Company, no I didn't look it up.

Dude, that was related to the cultivation of cocaine, which is and was much moreso in the past, a fundamental ingredient in Coke Classic.  

EDIT:  Well, it was and educated guess; but if I got it wrong it's only because of the vast number of choices.  Or perhaps I got it right the first time, so you chose to find another example.  Doesn't matter much, though; none of you guys have bothered to look up where these laws come from.  I didn't make them up.  And they have little to do with statutory laws.

And keep insulting myself or your other opposition, AyeYo, and you will find that your stuck in newbie hell with non-existent post history.  Worse, if I can swing it.

[MoonShadow]

I know what you are trying to say: MysteriousMan is a metaphore for the government!

If you say so. Kind of interesting how he functions within the guidelines of MoonShadow's anti-government laws.

I don't think anyone in this tread even understands those two laws.  What gives you the idea that I'm anti-government?

[NghtRppr]

I know what you are trying to say: MysteriousMan is a metaphore for the government!

If you say so. Kind of interesting how he functions within the guidelines of MoonShadow's anti-government laws.

I don't think anyone in this tread even understands those two laws.  What gives you the idea that I'm anti-government?

Probably because he doesn't understand the difference between governments and states.

[Hawker]

It's not clear to me where the creation of noise represents trespassing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6glPCLm0E#t=29m15s

If the first 30 seconds are anything to go by, he has no understanding of the law and has never lived in a city.  Noise is regulated like any other form of pollution.  To say that you have "homesteaded the noise" by creating noise pollution is bizarre.  If you want to make noise over a level that people find disturbing in their properties, you need to convince the local community that its in their interests to put up with it.

This thread isn't about how the law currently is.

Well its not how it can ever be either.  Communities will not allow pollution to ruin their properties absent huge amounts of force.

[NghtRppr]

It's not clear to me where the creation of noise represents trespassing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6glPCLm0E#t=29m15s

If the first 30 seconds are anything to go by, he has no understanding of the law and has never lived in a city.  Noise is regulated like any other form of pollution.  To say that you have "homesteaded the noise" by creating noise pollution is bizarre.  If you want to make noise over a level that people find disturbing in their properties, you need to convince the local community that its in their interests to put up with it.

This thread isn't about how the law currently is.

Well its not how it can ever be either.  Communities will not allow pollution to ruin their properties absent huge amounts of force.

What you've said has nothing to do with that video. You should watch it again.

[Hawker]

...snip...
Well its not how it can ever be either.  Communities will not allow pollution to ruin their properties absent huge amounts of force.

What you've said has nothing to do with that video. You should watch it again.

I don't like videos.  I'd happily read a transcript but listening so someone laboriously building a case from a false premise for an hour is just too much to ask. 

Its worth your watching the first 30 seconds again though to get his concept of "homesteading" the noise.

[NghtRppr]

...snip...
Well its not how it can ever be either.  Communities will not allow pollution to ruin their properties absent huge amounts of force.

What you've said has nothing to do with that video. You should watch it again.

I don't like videos.  I'd happily read a transcript but listening so someone laboriously building a case from a false premise for an hour is just too much to ask. 

Its worth your watching the first 30 seconds again though to get his concept of "homesteading" the noise.

That's all I wanted. That's why I didn't link you to the start of the video. That's how it's relevant to the first post.