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Author Topic: With no taxes, what about firestations and garbage service?  (Read 10110 times)
paraipan
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September 30, 2011, 01:12:03 PM
 #21

@Hawker, taxes will not be voluntary, would be like a fixed income tax agreed beforehand by all. The miners for the gov pools would do a public service and be taxed directly, and the rest will have registered bitcoin address as social security numbers paying their taxes at the exchanges or sending the money directly to that address, having the ability to check on Social Sec. website whatever the sum they have to pay every year.
They will do it happily to have their kids in school and be attended in public hospitals if they ever get sick, have their houses protected in case of fire, their garbage taken care of, protected by the police, etc. I know i would and use block explorer too view where my taxes go.

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September 30, 2011, 01:19:32 PM
 #22

@Hawker, taxes will not be voluntary, would be like a fixed income tax agreed beforehand by all. The miners for the gov pools would do a public service and be taxed directly, and the rest will have registered bitcoin address as social security numbers paying their taxes at the exchanges or sending the money directly to that address, having the ability to check on Social Sec. website whatever the sum they have to pay every year.
They will do it happily to have their kids in school and be attended in public hospitals if they ever get sick, have their houses protected in case of fire, their garbage taken care of, protected by the police, etc.

I love your idealism.  But people pay for stuff they are forced to pay for.  Yes a percentage of the population does financial planning and gets the right insurance policies and so on.  But there are lots of people who live on their credit limits and pay for stuff as it arises if they can pay at all.

BTW, all mining will be done in a year or two so that particular implementation detail needs rethinking.

paraipan
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September 30, 2011, 01:33:45 PM
 #23

@Hawker, taxes will not be voluntary, would be like a fixed income tax agreed beforehand by all. The miners for the gov pools would do a public service and be taxed directly, and the rest will have registered bitcoin address as social security numbers paying their taxes at the exchanges or sending the money directly to that address, having the ability to check on Social Sec. website whatever the sum they have to pay every year.
They will do it happily to have their kids in school and be attended in public hospitals if they ever get sick, have their houses protected in case of fire, their garbage taken care of, protected by the police, etc.

I love your idealism.  But people pay for stuff they are forced to pay for.  Yes a percentage of the population does financial planning and gets the right insurance policies and so on.  But there are lots of people who live on their credit limits and pay for stuff as it arises if they can pay at all.

BTW, all mining will be done in a year or two so that particular implementation detail needs rethinking.


glad you do, don't forget bitcoin is, if i'm allowed to say, deflationary so people will be more keen to hoard than to invest into worthless things. People that will choose to live on credit money are sentenced to fail in such a system and i guarantee you that if you require a tax check-up, instant in such a system, to allow a person use any public service they will pay in the end. But not forcing them to do so leaves the possibility to contract private services too. Democracy at it's best.

I don't really understand the mining part, it will exist as long as bitcoin does or the other way around if you want.

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September 30, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
 #24

...snip...

I don't really understand the mining part, it will exist as long as bitcoin does or the other way around if you want.

Once we reach 21 million bitcoin, all mining stops. 

paraipan
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September 30, 2011, 01:43:25 PM
 #25

...snip...

I don't really understand the mining part, it will exist as long as bitcoin does or the other way around if you want.

Once we reach 21 million bitcoin, all mining stops.  

heh, you wish, too bad we can't predict future though, what i understood from a few Satoshi's posts was that incentive for the miners would balance from fees, i already saw some blocks with fees > 1btc, don't forget the total amount of coins will be mined in +140 years too .
Just think what the fees would be in a million transaction block  Cheesy , that is not possible atm but i think the protocol doesn't restrict it

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September 30, 2011, 02:07:18 PM
 #26

...snip...

I don't really understand the mining part, it will exist as long as bitcoin does or the other way around if you want.

Once we reach 21 million bitcoin, all mining stops.  

heh, you wish, too bad we can't predict future though, what i understood from a few Satoshi's posts was that incentive for the miners would balance from fees, i already saw some blocks with fees > 1btc, don't forget the total amount of coins will be mined in +140 years too .
Just think what the fees would be in a million transaction block  Cheesy , that is not possible atm but i think the protocol doesn't restrict it

I don't think you understand.  Bitcoin is finite.  Once it reaches about 21 million, all mining ceases.

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September 30, 2011, 02:09:56 PM
 #27

It's a matter of semantics. The fact is Bitcoin will require computing power in order to function no matter if all the Bitcoins will be claimed. People will still run Bitcoin miners in the far future but to only collect fees. This can be still considered mining but only to facilitate transactions.
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September 30, 2011, 02:15:48 PM
 #28

It's a matter of semantics. The fact is Bitcoin will require computing power in order to function no matter if all the Bitcoins will be claimed. People will still run Bitcoin miners in the far future but to only collect fees. This can be still considered mining but only to facilitate transactions.

I don't think they will be generating more than 22 million bitcoin though?  So it won't really be mining - just payment processing.  Or have I misunderstood?

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September 30, 2011, 02:23:34 PM
 #29

It's a matter of semantics. The fact is Bitcoin will require computing power in order to function no matter if all the Bitcoins will be claimed. People will still run Bitcoin miners in the far future but to only collect fees. This can be still considered mining but only to facilitate transactions.

I don't think they will be generating more than 22 million bitcoin though?  So it won't really be mining - just payment processing.  Or have I misunderstood?
Transaction fees have never consisted of only newly minted coins.
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September 30, 2011, 02:55:37 PM
 #30

As for fire services and suchlike I'd rather have the government running the fire service as a non-profit than have a company using it to get all the money they can.

Why must the government run the non-profit?

Here is the fire department I used to have:
http://www.columbiacountyga.gov/index.aspx?page=4065

Quote
Martinez–Columbia Fire Rescue is a non-profit service organization providing fire protection and education, vehicle extrication and rescue, medical first response, and other services to the citizens in the unincorporated area of Columbia County.

Martinez–Columbia Fire Rescue has seventeen engine companies strategically located in the unincorporated area of Columbia County.   Fourteen stations are fully staffed twenty-four hours a day,  and three stations are fully equipped un-staffed stations that are covered by volunteers. The department is a combination career paid and volunteer organization with one hundred and seventy (170) members, along with a business office staff and a 24/7 fire dispatch center.  Training of these personnel far exceeds the state mandated training requirements and all are certified firefighters or in training to achieve this goal. Most are medical first responder, EMT, or paramedic qualified also.

The Martinez–Columbia Fire Rescue fire safety education program has been recognized for years as one of the premier programs in the state of Georgia. The Department has always held the philosophy that it is easier to prevent fires than to put them out.

Martinez–Columbia Fire Rescue has achieved a Class 4 Insurance Rating through a national rating firm. This benefits the citizens of the fire district with a seventy-five percent or better discount in their homeowner's insurance premium.  This is well above the average in the state of Georgia.

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September 30, 2011, 03:32:18 PM
 #31

Elwar as I said earlier, that works fine if you have a rural county.  In a city with blocks of housing and expensive fire trucks, it won't be practical.  You have to be able to enforce payment by everyone or else no-one gets an adequate service.

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September 30, 2011, 03:57:58 PM
 #32

Elwar as I said earlier, that works fine if you have a rural county.  In a city with blocks of housing and expensive fire trucks, it won't be practical.  You have to be able to enforce payment by everyone or else no-one gets an adequate service.

Expensive fire trucks? So the Martinez fire department has cheap fire trucks?

As for city housing of high rises, do they not have association fees? Every condo I have ever checked into has had those. I would assume that those fees could include fire prevention. With so many customers in such a small area you could get a lot of money from each building. Plenty for "expensive fire trucks".

Or if it is just a building rental with tenants, it would be the building owner who pays the fees.

My fees were $20 per month. With a building with 1000 condos that would be $20,000 per month going to the fire department. Plenty for any fire they may need to put out in that building.

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September 30, 2011, 04:38:33 PM
 #33

Elwar as I said earlier, that works fine if you have a rural county.  In a city with blocks of housing and expensive fire trucks, it won't be practical.  You have to be able to enforce payment by everyone or else no-one gets an adequate service.

Expensive fire trucks? So the Martinez fire department has cheap fire trucks?

As for city housing of high rises, do they not have association fees? Every condo I have ever checked into has had those. I would assume that those fees could include fire prevention. With so many customers in such a small area you could get a lot of money from each building. Plenty for "expensive fire trucks".

Or if it is just a building rental with tenants, it would be the building owner who pays the fees.

My fees were $20 per month. With a building with 1000 condos that would be $20,000 per month going to the fire department. Plenty for any fire they may need to put out in that building.

Your logic assumes that the fire service can be provided cheaply and that each house has one owner.  And in rural areas, thats true. In urban areas where you have 100s of buildings connected to one another it isn't.

But in an urban area where buildings are higher and have multiple occupants, it simply won't work.  Even with a monopoly its hard to pay for a decent fire service with the kit to handle fire in a multi-story building.  And in an apartment block, if 1 person out of the 100 or so apartments has paid for the fire service, the other 99 get their fires put out for free as you can't save just one part of one floor of a building.

So you'd end up with 1 or 2% of people paying for the service.  A firetruck with a pumper that can be used for an apartment block will cost about $400,000.  Almost all fires require two pumpers.  So that 1 or 2% need to find huge amounts of money.

It won't happen.  You need to make it compulsory for all people in the block just to make the system available to even one person in the block.

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September 30, 2011, 05:31:59 PM
 #34

...snip...

I don't really understand the mining part, it will exist as long as bitcoin does or the other way around if you want.

Once we reach 21 million bitcoin, all mining stops.  

heh, you wish, too bad we can't predict future though, what i understood from a few Satoshi's posts was that incentive for the miners would balance from fees, i already saw some blocks with fees > 1btc, don't forget the total amount of coins will be mined in +140 years too .
Just think what the fees would be in a million transaction block  Cheesy , that is not possible atm but i think the protocol doesn't restrict it

I don't think you understand.  Bitcoin is finite.  Once it reaches about 21 million, all mining ceases.

There are other blockchains to mine.

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September 30, 2011, 06:02:27 PM
 #35

Your logic assumes that the fire service can be provided cheaply and that each house has one owner. 

Not at all. And it is not a theory, it is a real thing in the real world. It does not have to be cheap, it has to be what property owners are willing to pay. Each house can have multiple owners, it does not matter.

And in an apartment block, if 1 person out of the 100 or so apartments has paid for the fire service, the other 99 get their fires put out for free as you can't save just one part of one floor of a building.

Are you completely ignoring the answer to this question that has been posted at least three times in this thread? Do not most buildings with separate owners pay association fees? Is the door man paid only by a few people? Is the upkeep of the building done by taxpayer money or through some sort of building fee? The fire fee can be paid in this exact same way.

Someone would have to go out of their way as a building owner to not pay for fire service. The fire department even offers to charge you for the service call if you do not pay a monthly fee, which is covered under most insurance plans. And the private fire company was able to cut home insurance plan costs by 75%.

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September 30, 2011, 07:06:50 PM
 #36

...snip...

Are you completely ignoring the answer to this question that has been posted at least three times in this thread? Do not most buildings with separate owners pay association fees? Is the door man paid only by a few people? Is the upkeep of the building done by taxpayer money or through some sort of building fee? The fire fee can be paid in this exact same way.

Someone would have to go out of their way as a building owner to not pay for fire service. The fire department even offers to charge you for the service call if you do not pay a monthly fee, which is covered under most insurance plans. And the private fire company was able to cut home insurance plan costs by 75%.

So on a street with 100 terraced houses, every other one agree to pay.  The ones in between get free cover.  And the fire brigade, which finds it hard to afford kit with 100% of the population paying, is forced to do without kit because only 50% pay.

What part of this do you not understand?  Some things are very expensive to do right and fire services are one of them.

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October 01, 2011, 01:49:05 AM
 #37

It's a matter of semantics. The fact is Bitcoin will require computing power in order to function no matter if all the Bitcoins will be claimed. People will still run Bitcoin miners in the far future but to only collect fees. This can be still considered mining but only to facilitate transactions.

I don't think they will be generating more than 22 million bitcoin though?  So it won't really be mining - just payment processing.  Or have I misunderstood?

There will never be more than 21 million as you stated earlier, but it's an asymptotic approach and will take more than just a couple years.  We have another 10 or 15 years before we even get close.  There will always be some mining because of the incentive of the last few bitcoins and the transaction costs (along as bitcoins still have value and don't completely crash).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time.png
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October 04, 2011, 03:20:30 PM
 #38

I don't know what part of the USA do you live but over here there's "no tax paid" garbage service. Along with free fire service, they should be allowed to loot! Smiley I mean it's already covered in insurance rite? If they don't get it, it's just gonna burn.

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October 04, 2011, 03:29:07 PM
 #39

So on a street with 100 terraced houses, every other one agree to pay.  The ones in between get free cover.  And the fire brigade, which finds it hard to afford kit with 100% of the population paying, is forced to do without kit because only 50% pay.

What part of this do you not understand?  Some things are very expensive to do right and fire services are one of them.

This might help solve the free rider problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_contract

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October 04, 2011, 05:41:20 PM
 #40

So on a street with 100 terraced houses, every other one agree to pay.  The ones in between get free cover.  And the fire brigade, which finds it hard to afford kit with 100% of the population paying, is forced to do without kit because only 50% pay.

What part of this do you not understand?  Some things are very expensive to do right and fire services are one of them.

This might help solve the free rider problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_contract

It requires that all agree to enter a binding agreement before starting.  The people who prefer to get the service for free won't do that.  So even before you start, you are left with the problem.

A possible solution for new developments would be that the house comes with a ground rent to the fire provider but there is no way to apply that to existing cities.  But then I suppose it would be harder to sell the houses so that won't be done either.

Thanks for the link though.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem describes what I was trying to get at with the selfish home-owner very concisely.

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