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Author Topic: With no taxes, what about firestations and garbage service?  (Read 10113 times)
Elwar
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September 29, 2011, 03:59:36 PM
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I see this all the time when mentioning getting rid of the income tax. "Hope your house isn't burning down, there will be no firemen to come help you." or the idea that you would have a huge pile of garbage because your tax paid garbage service would not show up.

Outside of the fact that the income tax pays for the federal government and fire stations, garbage service, etc is paid through property taxes, I still get disturbed by this.

Why do people believe that a fire station can only be run by tax dollars?

I lived in a county once, the population was a few hundred thousand people, that had a private fire department.

When I moved into my house I was mailed a letter with the private fire company's rates. I had the choice of paying $20 per month for full coverage, or there were fees for services. $50 minimum for a service call for small things such as a small kitchen fire or such and a maximum of $2,000 for a full house fire which it said that my homeowners insurance should be able to pay.

I have also had private garbage service at most places I have lived. I now pay $10 per month for garbage pick up. They come out 2 times a week and do a good job. If they did not do a good job I would just call another company.

My electricity is private. My water company is private. My sewage company is private. My current fire company is public. They used to be private but the county wanted to take over all fire services in the county so they snatched them up via eminent domain.

My property taxes are very low. I pay about $1,500 per year on a house valued around $200k.

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Stephen Gornick
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September 29, 2011, 07:49:39 PM
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My electricity is [a privately-owned regulated monopoly]. My water company is [a privately-owned regulated monopoly]. My sewage company is [a privately-owned regulated monopoly].

Fixed that for you.

My property taxes are very low.

 Lips sealed

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September 29, 2011, 08:02:54 PM
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My electricity is [a privately-owned regulated monopoly]. My water company is [a privately-owned regulated monopoly]. My sewage company is [a privately-owned regulated monopoly].

Fixed that for you.


True. I am not a big fan of government created monopolies.

With private roads they could run several separate systems under the roads to people's houses and charge each company rent for it. Thus allowing competition.

I am actually going to run for commissioner of my local water company just to keep them honest.

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September 29, 2011, 08:05:38 PM
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Though in Texas I did live in a few places that I could choose my electricity provider. I ended up choosing the windmill power company at one location.

Worked out well because the other company had to burn gasoline when the capacity was maxed out which cost extra money for electricity at those times. And that was when gas was around $5 per gallon. The flat rate was higher than the other for the windmill company but it turned out to save me a lot of money.

Choice...aint it grand?

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cryptobard
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September 29, 2011, 10:38:52 PM
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I dunno it's almost like people would pay for the services they desire or something.
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September 29, 2011, 10:44:53 PM
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Privative everything.  I want to see 2 IPO's in my lifetime: the USMC and the CIA.

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September 29, 2011, 10:53:59 PM
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don't get short imagining another taxation system based on bitcoin...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45839.msg550903#msg550903

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September 30, 2011, 08:09:36 AM
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The logic assumes that the fire service can be provided cheaply and that each house has one owner.  And in rural areas, thats true.  

But in an urban area where buildings are higher and have multiple occupants, it simply won't work.  Even with a monopoly its hard to pay for a decent fire service with the kit to handle fire in a multi-story building.  And in an apartment block, if 1 person out of the 100 or so apartments has paid for the fire service, the other 99 get their fires put out for free as you can't save just one part of one floor of a building.  

So you'd end up with 1 or 2% of people paying for the service.  And since its very expensive, unless they pay millions, even they wouldn't get the service.  You need to make it compulsory for all people in the block just to make the system available to even one person in the block.

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September 30, 2011, 08:57:21 AM
 #9

Taxes are a pretty difficult cat to put back in the bag, so it's kind of a moot point.  However, note that the Government could just print their own money and spend it.  In the end, that's pretty much what they are doing, anyhow, with the taxes.  And this would make April much more pleasant.

payb.tc/formerlyanonymous
onesalt
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September 30, 2011, 11:22:45 AM
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hint: natural monopolies such as water, power and gas are generally better run by the government since they're marginally more accountable than a corporation doing it (see: turned out the 6 largest british gas providers were in collusion with eachother to put up gas prices by 30% for the sake of earning more money).

As for fire services and suchlike I'd rather have the government running the fire service as a non-profit than have a company using it to get all the money they can. It's that sorta attitude that leads to a load of firemen standing outside your house going "awfully flammable building this. could go up like a bonfire with just one dropped cigerette butt, know what I'm saying?"
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September 30, 2011, 11:31:53 AM
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without taxes if people wanted something they'd just do it themselves or pay someone to do it- I know people where I live don't want trash all over the place, maybe I'd make a living keeping it clean. Need for taxes is an illusion to keep people in line, people aren't stupid and ignorant enough to let the world go to shit just because 'the man' isn't taking out their trash. A fireman that won't work just because there's no paycheck is no fireman at all, just a walking meat sack of 'want' for the things that paycheck gets him.

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September 30, 2011, 11:41:57 AM
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without taxes if people wanted something they'd just do it themselves or pay someone to do it- I know people where I live don't want trash all over the place, maybe I'd make a living keeping it clean. Need for taxes is an illusion to keep people in line, people aren't stupid and ignorant enough to let the world go to shit just because 'the man' isn't taking out their trash. A fireman that won't work just because there's no paycheck is no fireman at all, just a walking meat sack of 'want' for the things that paycheck gets him.

The logic assumes that the fire service can be provided cheaply and that each house has one owner.  And in rural areas, thats true. 

But in an urban area where buildings are higher and have multiple occupants, it simply won't work.  Even with a monopoly its hard to pay for a decent fire service with the kit to handle fire in a multi-story building.  And in an apartment block, if 1 person out of the 100 or so apartments has paid for the fire service, the other 99 get their fires put out for free as you can't save just one part of one floor of a building. 

So you'd end up with 1 or 2% of people paying for the service.  A firetruck with a pumper that can be used for an apartment block will cost about $400,000.  Almost all fires require two pumpers.  So that 1 or 2% need to find huge amounts of money. 

It won't happen.  You need to make it compulsory for all people in the block just to make the system available to even one person in the block.




onesalt
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September 30, 2011, 11:44:40 AM
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This is why fire services are generally mandatory. Paying a flat fee per fire doesn't work (because the fire service can't guarantee it's income for a year and hence stay solvent enough to actualy put out fires). Fires effect everyone, at essentially random, at that.
NghtRppr
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September 30, 2011, 12:03:02 PM
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But in an urban area where buildings are higher and have multiple occupants, it simply won't work.  Even with a monopoly its hard to pay for a decent fire service with the kit to handle fire in a multi-story building.  And in an apartment block, if 1 person out of the 100 or so apartments has paid for the fire service, the other 99 get their fires put out for free as you can't save just one part of one floor of a building.

The apartment buildings would come with fire service because the guy that owns the building doesn't want his property to burn down. In the case of condominiums it would be the same result but for different reason. Nobody would want to own a condominium without fire protection therefore anyone that buys it will have to agree to pay for it so the rest of the units could be sold.

This is why fire services are generally mandatory. Paying a flat fee per fire doesn't work (because the fire service can't guarantee it's income for a year and hence stay solvent enough to actualy put out fires). Fires effect everyone, at essentially random, at that.

You wouldn't pay a flat fee. You'd pay a monthly or yearly fee.
paraipan
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September 30, 2011, 12:41:18 PM
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without taxes if people wanted something they'd just do it themselves or pay someone to do it- I know people where I live don't want trash all over the place, maybe I'd make a living keeping it clean. Need for taxes is an illusion to keep people in line, people aren't stupid and ignorant enough to let the world go to shit just because 'the man' isn't taking out their trash. A fireman that won't work just because there's no paycheck is no fireman at all, just a walking meat sack of 'want' for the things that paycheck gets him.

... don't forget medical services and education, the two most important public services i will not want private in a bitcoin future

a just and more convenient tax system is possible with bitcoin, it's very transparent to begin with...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45839.msg550903#msg550903

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September 30, 2011, 12:42:53 PM
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Where I live I paid my own education and health, and I do not regret it.

I only wish I do not had to pay taxes for services I did not used...

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September 30, 2011, 12:56:42 PM
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Where I live I paid my own education and health, and I do not regret it.

I only wish I do not had to pay taxes for services I did not used...

...you, me and all the people on this forum, though i would like a common fund to pay the teachers and the doctors, it has many more advantages than having those two services private and i could give some good examples with persons that are too sick to work and need medical care and education to be able making a contribution to the society in the future. We are people, we want and have to help each other, "divide et impera" just could not fit in if we want to survive as specie. Thanks Satoshi, wherever you are now, and thanks to you guys for opening your eyes  Cheesy

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September 30, 2011, 01:00:39 PM
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Where I live I paid my own education and health, and I do not regret it.

I only wish I do not had to pay taxes for services I did not used...

...you, me and all the people on this forum, though i would like a common fund to pay the teachers and the doctors, it has many more advantages than having those two services private and i could give some good examples with persons that are too sick to work and need medical care and education to be able making a contribution to the society in the future. We are people, we want and have to help each other, "divide et impera" just could not fit in if we want to survive as specie. Thanks Satoshi, wherever you are now.

For services that are expensive to provide, even when you have taxation its hard to make adequate provision.  If you make it voluntary, you end up with inadequate provision even for those who agree to pay. 

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September 30, 2011, 01:02:10 PM
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I have also had private garbage service at most places I have lived. I now pay $10 per month for garbage pick up. They come out 2 times a week and do a good job. If they did not do a good job I would just call another company.
I heard about someone who tried to call another garbage company after calling to complain to the one she already had. The same guy answered the phone.

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September 30, 2011, 01:05:42 PM
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Here in Brazil the most popular way to steal money is open a garbage service...

Two mayors that seemly wanted to whistleblower that, got killed. (Toninho - PT, mayor of Campinas, killed in september 10 2001, and the mayor from Santo André, also from PT)

The city where I live, has the biggest municipal debt of the country, and most of it was done hiring garbage services... the current mayor is being investigated for stealing money with garbage services during his previous rule (during the 80s)

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