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Author Topic: Debt is Sin (hamartia ἁμαρτία , hatta'at חָטָא)  (Read 4207 times)
netrin
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September 29, 2011, 05:11:30 PM
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I'm not a religious man, but I find it interesting that Judeo-Christian-Islamic teachings strongly opposed usury and debt. In fact, the entire motif of original sin, through redemption, judgement and forgivess are all related to debt. If you replaced every instance of the word 'sin' in the bible with 'debt', I think it would make just as much, if not more sense.

Sin in original Greek hamartia (ἁμαρτία) and Hebrew hatta'at or hata' (חָטָא) means "to miss the mark" or failure to repay DEBT, and could be repaid through sacrifice. Satan tempts us with debt, the fortunes of the flesh now with pain and suffering in the future. We are born with original debt.

According to David Graeber:
Quote from: David Graeber
In Sanskrit, Hebrew, Aramaic, ‘debt,’ ‘guilt,’ and ‘sin’ are actually the same word. Much of the language of the great religious movements – reckoning, redemption, karmic accounting and the like – are drawn from the language of ancient finance.

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September 29, 2011, 05:15:36 PM
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Business cannot exist without debt.  Obviously the bible wasn't written by business men.

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September 30, 2011, 09:08:15 PM
 #3

it is the same word in german still actually (Schuld/Schulden)

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September 30, 2011, 09:13:41 PM
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I'm not a religious man, but I find it interesting that Judeo-Christian-Islamic teachings strongly opposed usury and debt. In fact, the entire motif of original sin, through redemption, judgement and forgivess are all related to debt. If you replaced every instance of the word 'sin' in the bible with 'debt', I think it would make just as much, if not more sense.

Sin in original Greek hamartia (ἁμαρτία) and Hebrew hatta'at or hata' (חָטָא) means "to miss the mark" or failure to repay DEBT, and could be repaid through sacrifice. Satan tempts us with debt, the fortunes of the flesh now with pain and suffering in the future. We are born with original debt.

According to David Graeber:
Quote from: David Graeber
In Sanskrit, Hebrew, Aramaic, ‘debt,’ ‘guilt,’ and ‘sin’ are actually the same word. Much of the language of the great religious movements – reckoning, redemption, karmic accounting and the like – are drawn from the language of ancient finance.
I agree with this sentiment.  I will never go into debt again, once I am out of the hole I've dug for myself at this point.
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September 30, 2011, 10:34:45 PM
 #5

Google says "sin,debt,trespass" is "αμαρτία,χρέος,παράπτωμα"

Matthew 6:11-13: Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
11 τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον· 12 καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ⸀ἀφήκαμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν· 13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ ⸀πονηροῦ.

Luke 11:3-4: Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.
3 τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθʼ ἡμέραν· 4 καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, καὶ γὰρ αὐτοὶ ἀφίομεν παντὶ ὀφείλοντι ἡμῖν· καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς ⸀πειρασμόν.

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September 30, 2011, 11:11:46 PM
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After refraining from killing, the second precept of a Buddhist monk is commonly summarized "Do not steal", but in actuality it is a vow "not to take what is not given" (Adinnādānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi). Far from subtle, I think that's a profound distinction.

Furthermore, the act of giving where one feels inspired without strings attached (dana) is the first graduated step of the Buddha's teaching, the first base of meritorious deeds, means of benefiting others, and first of ten perfections.

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September 30, 2011, 11:20:25 PM
 #7

When you dine in a restaurant, you're in debt until you pay the check...

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September 30, 2011, 11:29:01 PM
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When you dine in a restaurant, you're in debt until you pay the check...

Good point. I suppose it's the interest and particularly accepting debt beyond one's means and the hell/slavery that may ensue.

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October 01, 2011, 01:35:54 AM
 #9

When you dine in a restaurant, you're in debt until you pay the check...
I view debt as unable to immediately pay the balance in full, and not by using another form of debt to accomplish it.  Dining at a restaurant wouldn't count as debt in that case.
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October 01, 2011, 01:39:50 AM
 #10

What about for example if you borrow money just to have a little extra in your wallet in case somthing unexpected happen, but it's not more than what you already have in the wallet or in the bank?

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October 01, 2011, 01:44:25 AM
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What about for example if you borrow money just to have a little extra in your wallet in case somthing unexpected happen, but it's not more than what you already have in the wallet or in the bank?
I don't understand - why would I need a loan to do that?  Why not just withdraw however much extra cash I wanted on hand out of my bank account directly?
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October 01, 2011, 01:51:33 AM
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What about for example if you borrow money just to have a little extra in your wallet in case somthing unexpected happen, but it's not more than what you already have in the wallet or in the bank?
I don't understand - why would I need a loan to do that?  Why not just withdraw however much extra cash I wanted on hand out of my bank account directly?

Say for example you have 50 on your wallet and 50 on the bank, you wanna go somewhere that if your car breaks the return trip will be 100 bucks if you take a taxi, and you don't wanna have to leave the taxi waiting while you are in a line in the bank; in that case you could borrow a 50 bill from a friend, go to the place you wanna go, and then when you come back, if you car didn't break, you pay him back the same bill (otherwise you need to go to the bank before repaying him of course).

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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October 01, 2011, 01:55:55 AM
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What about for example if you borrow money just to have a little extra in your wallet in case somthing unexpected happen, but it's not more than what you already have in the wallet or in the bank?
I don't understand - why would I need a loan to do that?  Why not just withdraw however much extra cash I wanted on hand out of my bank account directly?

Say for example you have 50 on your wallet and 50 on the bank, you wanna go somewhere that if your car breaks the return trip will be 100 bucks if you take a taxi, and you don't wanna have to leave the taxi waiting while you are in a line in the bank; in that case you could borrow a 50 bill from a friend, go to the place you wanna go, and then when you come back, if you car didn't break, you pay him back the same bill (otherwise you need to go to the bank before repaying him of course).
Gotcha.  I'd kind of view that like the restaurant - it's not a debt, since you can repay it.  Well, it is in the technical sense of the word, but for the purposes of saying "I won't ever take on debt," I wouldn't consider it debt.
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October 01, 2011, 02:01:39 AM
 #14

When you dine in a restaurant, you're in debt until you pay the check...

I have always looked at being in debt (at least for a moment) with most all transactions, let alone dining in a restaurant.

Ignoring that I am paying for a transaction with debt notes (FRNs), when I go to the grocery store, pick up a loaf of bread and visit the cashier, the cashier scans the bread and makes an offer "1 loaf of bread will cost $2.50", I think it over and agree to pay $2.50 for the bread. "Ok, sounds good" I say. At this point I feel we have a meeting of the minds, agreement and thus a contract. Whether I have physical possession of the bread at that moment is irrelevant to me, I agreed to a transaction and am obligated (in debt) to complete it.

But that is just me, I am strange.
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October 01, 2011, 02:16:01 AM
 #15

When you dine in a restaurant, you're in debt until you pay the check...

Good point. I suppose it's the interest and particularly accepting debt beyond one's means and the hell/slavery that may ensue.

Interest is simply the price of money.  The ability to charge interest on loans comes from people's time preference in relation to money (generally prefer equal quantities of money now to later).  Saying "never go into debt" doesn't seem to be realistic.  Saying "be very careful about going into debt" is, I think, very wise.   
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October 01, 2011, 02:37:50 AM
 #16

We all agree there are different degrees of indebtedness and wildly different degrees of cost or penalty. But I'm curious if ya'll think "debt" is what the 'good books' are referring to as "sin" of all degrees from the personal to the global level?

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