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Author Topic: I've just invented dMerits.  (Read 909 times)
r1s2g3
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July 08, 2018, 05:56:53 AM
 #21

I am not sure how the Merit source sMerits works but till now my understanding it that they have fixed quota and they will be replenished with the  amount that they spent. If they did not use their full quota then it is lapsed.

I will first go in Pros of demerits system:
1. Merits that Merit Source is not able to Merit will be delegating to others so forum has all the source sMerits in circulation.
2. Merit Source is able to take care of those section of forum ,where Merit are scarce and he is lacking the knowledge/language barrier/time barrier to
    evaluate all the post.
3. Burden is somewhat distributed to other, some kind of decentralized Merit distribution.

I will now talk about Cons of the system.
1. Putting a middleman in Merit system, will cause half of Merit lost before reaching to the destination.
2. Theymos already said in initial thread , if some good thread is not receiving enough or no Merits, then they should be bought into his notice. User
    should  apply for Merit Source after collecting these post. Transferring of Merits is a direct blow to this procedure.
3. Giving Merit itself is a very subjective. Now selecting a another person for this job will arise a question like "Why he/she, Why not me ?" I think
    actually  Theymos selected all Merit Sources with some criteria. He can analyse everything for a user being a forum administrator but Merit Source will
    not be  having access to that data.


My Personal Thinking:
Giving up Merit to person A , so that person A  can pass it up to B is a transmission loss of Merit. Might be Theymos can introduce new concept for Merit source to directly transfer the sMerits.  Merit Source should encourage the deserving person to start their Merit Source application and support the application of that user.
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July 08, 2018, 08:24:02 AM
 #22

>..<

When I thought of the system, I wondered if dMerits was a good name. It sounds too much like negative merits.  Maybe 'transferable' or 'assigned' would be a better name. There is already confusion between 'source merits' and 'spendable merits' because they are both considered as sMerits. There are a couple of minor points in your post that are inaccurate. I wrote a description of operation of the merits system, and you can read it on my blog ( which I need to give the kiss of life ). The link is -
https://talkmerit.com/the-source/index.php/articles/the-bitcoin-talk-merit-system

My suggestion does not result in a loss of merits, or a risk of condemnation because one is awarding 'friends', as the transfer is not an 'award' but a simple transfer of awardable merits. Take the case of my 10 merit award to seoinc, that was not for one of his posts, but to allow him to merit some Spanish posts, and many would say that it resulted in the waste of 5 merits. The reality is that those 10 merits will be replaced shortly, so it is a gain of 5 merits to the Spanish community. He is a Legendary, so the 10 merits are not going to affect his ranking, but there seems to be an idea amongst some forum members that they are wasted merits. I think that seoinc is under-merited, and that Heroes and Legendaries should be merited to help them to determine community preferences.

I'm anti globalisation by the banking elite, and to combat this, sovereign nations need to work together to preserve their independence and their cultures. The deep state has the benefit of members educated in the English public school system ( remember, these are the exclusive expensive ones, not the state funded ones), followed by an OxBridge conditioning, which includes cross-pollenation with other elite schools around the world. We need to build similar friendships and associations, and a forum like Bitcoin Talk is and ideal place for members to exchange ideas. We need to be able to communicate with each other though, and that is why I created the Fit to Talk translation project. It is also important for us to obtain local news, and the brazilian truckers' strike thread is just one example. Consider the proposed Venezuelan Petro, if this suddenly kicked off, the local board merit source may not be able to handle the volume of quality posts that could appear, allowing a temporary increase would create a useful buffer to handle this.

I'm starting to plan my Crypto Coin Tree speculation club

Send me a PM if you would be interested in taking part in the initial planning.
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July 08, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
 #23

The merit system is under attack. Thank you for the work you are doing to find a lasting solution to keep this novel idea aimed at improving the forum.

I want to suggest that instead of training the merit sources or delegates, we turn them to merit college. The merit college should be the one to reward posts with deserving merits.



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TheQuin
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July 08, 2018, 10:03:32 AM
 #24

Would this work?

Selected, or all merit sources have a button to award dMerits, as well as one for sMerits, Awarded dMerits are taken from their sMerit stock. There is a list of authorised receivers of dMerits. This list is made public, and dMerit awards are also published. dMerit activity can be analysed, and the community can report any abuses. The dMerit awarder would need to ensure that he does not make awards to unauthorised recipients.

This would fit into the current merit structure, but Theymos will need to comment on the software changes involved.

That would be an excellent enhancement to the system. Delegation is the key to managing any large organisation and that principle would work equally well here. There's obviously too much work being done by too few sources at the moment and if theymos can't identify enough suitable candidates then delegating that to the existing sources in this way is an ideal solution.

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July 08, 2018, 11:53:08 AM
 #25

Jat Cash,

This idea seems good, but there are enough people (high ranked members) at this forum who can appreciate any posts or comments.

If a member can/want appreciate anyone for post/comment he must have knowledge, experience and skill on this forum. As far as I know the the overwhelming majority of such people Full Members or higher. They have 100 and more sMerits. What for does someone need more sMerits/dMerits if he has lots of it?

If this person is really active and has no enough Merits for rewards (but lots of high ranked Members complain of lack of good posts/comments) he/she can be Merit source like you. There is a clear rules for this one.


I hope I have clearly expressed my thoughts and misunderstanding of this proposal.

Also I would like to add that it's easier to help this trusted person to write merit scource request and make him/her full-fledged one instead of changing the rules and giving dishonest members additional way to scam and deceive here.

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July 08, 2018, 12:01:50 PM
 #26

It isn't as simple as that. There are a few members who have received high ranks because of their spamming activities, and one tries to keep sMerits away from them, because they abuse the system. There are also many active members who are beneficial to the forum, but do not have enough sMerits because the are active on minority boards. It would be great if we could benefit from the ideas and discussions that are confined to those communities at the moment. An interesting and helpful member should not be penalised because he is limited to posting in his natural language.

I'm starting to plan my Crypto Coin Tree speculation club

Send me a PM if you would be interested in taking part in the initial planning.
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July 08, 2018, 12:09:52 PM
 #27

It isn't as simple as that. There are a few members who have received high ranks because of their spamming activities, and one tries to keep sMerits away from them, because they abuse the system. There are also many active members who are beneficial to the forum, but do not have enough sMerits because the are active on minority boards. It would be great if we could benefit from the ideas and discussions that are confined to those communities at the moment. An interesting and helpful member should not be penalised because he is limited to posting in his natural language.

With this statement I absolutely agree with you.

Lots of members don't use SMerits at all and lots of them received merits for long service or spam bounties.

Ofc, local boards have to have several Merit source, and I really don't understand why is it still not so.


But why don't you help these Members to request for merit scource if you are sure of his/her being a useful member with enough skill and experience?

I saw many people support appearing of new Merit source in local boards.



PS: mb better adopted (aMerit) or borrowed (bMerit), cuz letter "d" - usually has negative association  Wink Grin

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July 08, 2018, 12:29:32 PM
 #28

Lets call the responsible members of community boards 'local supporters'. Most local supporters don't seem to want the responsibility of a constant flow of source merits, and they may not need them. However they would like to reward members of their community on an ad hoc basis. Being able to obtain these sMerits would be a benefit to the community, and the forum in my opinion.

Could this be resolved by posting a list of good posts? Not in my opinion. I don't read those lists, as this seems to be moving me towards my membership here becoming a job. Also, it is unlikely that I will understand a foreign language post. There is another consideration as well, I don't want to accept the responsibility of awarding a post selected by another member. I would be happy to delegate that responsibility if I respected the member.

I appreciate that I have some rather traditional English attitudes and beliefs, and I would be happy to accept the community ( and/or Theymos ) decisions in these matters, but I may be too old to change some of my fundamental ideas.

I'm starting to plan my Crypto Coin Tree speculation club

Send me a PM if you would be interested in taking part in the initial planning.
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July 08, 2018, 12:39:01 PM
 #29

I see faith in people and a deep conviction that they will be honest. I, too, used to think about the best, and I consider such thoughts a sign of honest people. I hope this correspondence has given us the opportunity to better understand your idea. At least it helps to spread sMerits better/faster (it's a good news for beneficial members). Thanks for the answers and clarifications.

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July 08, 2018, 01:14:18 PM
 #30

Almost same idea that I posted. I was mention all over forum and you asking only for merit source. Something is better then nothing. It's also great idea. Only for merit source can dmerit i mean same thing source will send 1 and receiver will receive 1 smerit but it will not reflect  his own merit. Sumarry of your post finally, I understand that we need crew of merit source ? Am I right? Same like DT crew. That's fine also. Dmerit = direct merit as per your post. Yes theymos can implement if possible. If not then for me I have another idea. Dmerit= double merit  Grin . Yes it's not joke. Double merit for source. I think currently approx 300 merit receive monthly. Double it. I don't think source are misusing smerit. So I think it's not risk to increase smerit for merit source. At least it will help reduce erosion of merit.

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July 08, 2018, 01:23:14 PM
 #31

You seem to have suggested an interesting variation on the theme. The merit system has two levels - Source1 and Source2. Source1 members obtain refreshable merits under the current system. Source2 members don't get any automatic distribution, but obtain their sMerits from Source1 members. This could be a useful improvement, as it keeps control of primary merit distribution within the current administration.

I'm starting to plan my Crypto Coin Tree speculation club

Send me a PM if you would be interested in taking part in the initial planning.
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July 08, 2018, 04:15:27 PM
 #32

First of all, thanks to all for the trust you have deposited on me. The merits you've given me have been already distributed on the Spanish Local, you can check my merit summary in here: bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=334783
I've chosen to give an important amount to the post I suggested, why? Because the Spanish board is beginning to be invaded, as the English one, by shitposters writing lines like "QUé interesante tu post" (How interesting!!). This post is about the feelings, how you can become a good user and be an important part, so it was necessary, from my point of view.
The others are newbies or members that are truly trying, something more and more difficult to see each day. So I gave them merits to make the point, to make an example. I also gave 2 to a Hero (they need to rank-up too), for he is creating one of the most completes guides to mining, great explained and really detalled.

Also firstly, CONGRATS, JC.



When I thought of the system, I wondered if dMerits was a good name. It sounds too much like negative merits.  Maybe 'transferable' or 'assigned' would be a better name.

Maybe "Team Merit" should be more accurate, for it implies a teamwork, and also looks "easier to digest".

My suggestion does not result in a loss of merits, or a risk of condemnation because one is awarding 'friends', as the transfer is not an 'award' but a simple transfer of awardable merits. Take the case of my 10 merit award to seoinc, that was not for one of his posts, but to allow him to merit some Spanish posts, and many would say that it resulted in the waste of 5 merits. The reality is that those 10 merits will be replaced shortly, so it is a gain of 5 merits to the Spanish community. He is a Legendary, so the 10 merits are not going to affect his ranking, but there seems to be an idea amongst some forum members that they are wasted merits. I think that seoinc is under-merited, and that Heroes and Legendaries should be merited to help them to determine community preferences.
Well, this is sad to see I've received a lot of merits, but when I give away them they look few. For that reason maybe this is better to wait and see (hopefully your idea will be implemented), in order to be able to exploit them.


I'm anti globalisation by the banking elite, and to combat this, sovereign nations need to work together to preserve their independence and their cultures. The deep state has the benefit of members educated in the English public school system ( remember, these are the exclusive expensive ones, not the state funded ones), followed by an OxBridge conditioning, which includes cross-pollenation with other elite schools around the world. We need to build similar friendships and associations, and a forum like Bitcoin Talk is and ideal place for members to exchange ideas. We need to be able to communicate with each other though, and that is why I created the Fit to Talk translation project. It is also important for us to obtain local news, and the brazilian truckers' strike thread is just one example. Consider the proposed Venezuelan Petro, if this suddenly kicked off, the local board merit source may not be able to handle the volume of quality posts that could appear, allowing a temporary increase would create a useful buffer to handle this.

I'm from a third world country, many of our beautiful shores have been sold, and even the local cultures are no longer allowed to enjoy their nature. So yes, I feel you at that point.

Besides, on the Spanish Board, I've recently appreciated that many Venezuelans are coming and joining. Many of them are unable to speak English, and their situation is dramatic. I will encourage them to participate in FitToTalk and see what happens. I haven't seen too much interest in joining any conversation, but you know, there are always exceptions.

IN CONCLUSION: Some of you might find that the best way to take is to me and other local users become a Merit Source.
To me, there are enough sources by now, for, all we can see, some of them are really struggling when trying to find meritable posts. That's the reason I don't want to become a source, but maybe a collaborator. I think there are enough merits, and having another source is not going to help. To me, to be a Merit Source seems a lonely work, and I rather prefer to be a diplomatic SOURCE2, as JC pointed previously, so I can manage to spare some in my local (and, of course, other sites if deserved). Even when it can sound absurd, I believe that more merit sources will imply less distribution, for we have many already with tons of merits to award and no one to receive them. If, on the contrary, we spare the merits in between the locals, by creating a team, it will ease the work of the merit sources and, at the same time, we are going to be more relaxed, so more merits will be rewarded. Just like The Quin pointed:

That would be an excellent enhancement to the system. Delegation is the key to managing any large organisation and that principle would work equally well here. There's obviously too much work being done by too few sources at the moment and if theymos can't identify enough suitable candidates then delegating that to the existing sources in this way is an ideal solution.


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July 08, 2018, 05:04:49 PM
 #33

dMerits are a good idea especially in local boards that dont have a merit source. But even if your suggestion is not accepted by the administration this can still be done in a different way with a team of trusted and high ranked members of local boards. Legendary members cant rank up any further so they dont need to have an interest in gaining more merits aside from distributing them further. Many Hero members - who will rank up eventually anyways due to the quality of their posts can also be brought in for this task. Here is my suggestion:

- We create a separate thread and call it Merit Sources for Local Boards (or something along those lines).
- In local boards the members will create a separate thread and suggest the user that will represent their local board and be the Merit Source for that local board. It can be done by voting. The proposed user must get the majority of votes. (70%) The user who gets selected is introduced in the Merit Sources for Local Boards thread as a representative of Local board X with the results of the voting done in the local community as proof that they want and trust him for the task. The local communities know best because they spend most time there and they can see who is doing what.
- The suggested members are than reviewed by the administration, including their sMerit history, existence of potential alt accounts, merit farming, trust etc. and approved if they are clean.
- Once this is done and all potential users are selected there will be a time frame in which users can object the selection of a potential merit source with valid proof of wrongdoings in order to be absolutely transparent. Maybe even a Veto can be used if a proposed user from a local board is absolutely untrustworthy by the community but again proof needs to be shown for all objections. 
- Once the group is selected the merit sources decide how many merits they will distribute to those individuals. Again - legendary members have no use for the merits and Hero members should be trusted enough to do this task as well and even if that leads to them gaining legendary rank wouldn't be an issue since they did it helping the community. 
- The Merit Sources for Local Boards have to post proof of their distribution of the issued merits so everyone can see and make sure everything is being done properly. If member X from Local Language Board X sees an issue with the distribution he reports the Merit Source for his Local Board, he is taken of the list and further sanctions can be imposed by the admins.


In this way the local boards get the attention they deserve, quality posts get rewarded and incentive is created for good quality topics and discussions.
The Merit Sources we have now will have an easier task because they are getting assistance to handle out merits and the occasional Hero member here and there reaches a higher rank maybe by helping out.   


   

 
LoyceV
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July 08, 2018, 06:24:53 PM
 #34

You seem to have suggested an interesting variation on the theme. The merit system has two levels - Source1 and Source2. Source1 members obtain refreshable merits under the current system. Source2 members don't get any automatic distribution, but obtain their sMerits from Source1 members. This could be a useful improvement, as it keeps control of primary merit distribution within the current administration.
Isn't all this an unnecessary complication of the Merit system? I too tend to make many suggestions, but realize most of them just add work for the Admins.

Instead of transering sMerits, why not just ask the person you want to send them to for a list of posts, and Merit them directly? I've made that suggestion, but haven't done it yet.


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July 08, 2018, 08:39:59 PM
 #35

You seem to have suggested an interesting variation on the theme. The merit system has two levels - Source1 and Source2. Source1 members obtain refreshable merits under the current system. Source2 members don't get any automatic distribution, but obtain their sMerits from Source1 members. This could be a useful improvement, as it keeps control of primary merit distribution within the current administration.
In this case, why not to implement a next level (Source 3) for local boards?
These Source 3 members would obtain sMerits from Source 2 members, but only smaller amount, e.g. 20-30 sMerits per month (that could vary based on the post count of the local board, etc...)
If you want to control it, let's make Source 2 members check what happened with the sMerits given in the previous round, and if everything is fine, they can give sMerits again.
In this case, a fraudulent Source 3 member only can give away only 20-30 sMerits, and after there will be no more merits from the Source 2 member.
They can be called local sources or something similar...
I can imageine that if someone wants to give merits in specific boards only (e.g. Technical discussion or other special threads), they can also become Source 3 members, so I wouldn't limit it to local boards only...

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July 09, 2018, 07:14:34 AM
 #36

Instead of transering sMerits, why not just ask the person you want to send them to for a list of posts, and Merit them directly? I've made that suggestion, but haven't done it yet.

I think that just adds extra work for both the merit source and the person nominating posts. Being able to delegate to someone you trust to make good decisions is beneficial in making systems more efficient and decentralised.

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July 09, 2018, 07:22:26 AM
 #37

You seem to have suggested an interesting variation on the theme. The merit system has two levels - Source1 and Source2. Source1 members obtain refreshable merits under the current system. Source2 members don't get any automatic distribution, but obtain their sMerits from Source1 members. This could be a useful improvement, as it keeps control of primary merit distribution within the current administration.
Isn't all this an unnecessary complication of the Merit system? I too tend to make many suggestions, but realize most of them just add work for the Admins.

Instead of transering sMerits, why not just ask the person you want to send them to for a list of posts, and Merit them directly? I've made that suggestion, but haven't done it yet.



Or simply ask people that are eligible to come forward and propose themselves as merit sources. Is well known at the moment there is a lack of merit sources in the local boards.



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Maestro75
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July 09, 2018, 07:36:03 AM
 #38

We could do a new post for merit on fit to talk
When is the forum going to move away from merit discussions? Are we going to have an anniversary around it. This is already boring.

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TheQuin
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July 09, 2018, 08:03:28 AM
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 #39

We could do a new post for merit on fit to talk
When is the forum going to move away from merit discussions? Are we going to have an anniversary around it. This is already boring.

When it has been in place so long everyone has forgotten what it was like before. That's pretty much what happened when Activity was first introduced or any other major change over the years. If you find it boring you can simply ignore the threads about it. There's nothing quite as boring as someone only joining a thread to say it is about a subject they are not interested in.

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July 09, 2018, 08:15:01 AM
 #40

So many people are monitoring merits that any abuse would be seen pretty quickly
Maybe only heroes and legendaries could receive dMerits

Yep, the "Trusted team" may be created, or something similar.
But the idea seems really useful, mostly for the local boards. I've just found one of the most amazing posts (in the Spanish board) and I don't have any merit left  Undecided
As long as these "trusted team" are humans and dwell among us and have red blood flow in them like any other persons, they too can get corrupted with time and become irrational. We have seen this happen in the past where trusted older members here turned scammers.

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