Backup and restore

[samuel-sd]

Hi everybody!
I am thinking about using Electrum and researching about security and compatibility.
The last version of Electrum uses 13-word seeds which cannot be used by any other wallets except electrum.

How to make a backup so that I can restore it fully in the future without using Electrum?
I don't want to depend on a wallet.

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[HCP]

Minor correction... Electrum uses 12 word seed mnemonics... but you are correct that it is not compatible with other wallets.

If you want to be able to restore your wallet in another wallet in the future, you would need to create a 12 word seed mnemonic from a "BIP39" compatible wallet (or something like the Ian Coleman BIP39 mnemonic tool) and then use that seed mnemonic with Electrum as Electrum is able to restore BIP39 wallets.

There are downsides to this approach (the seed mnemonic will NOT be backed up in the wallet file, so you won't be able to extract it from the wallet file later if you lose your offline copy of the seed mnemonic etc).

[samuel-sd]

Minor correction... Electrum uses 12 word seed mnemonics... but you are correct that it is not compatible with other wallets.

It was _13_ words long by default when I created a new wallet. (linux version)

If you want to be able to restore your wallet in another wallet in the future, you would need to create a 12 word seed mnemonic from a "BIP39" compatible wallet (or something like the Ian Coleman BIP39 mnemonic tool) and then use that seed mnemonic with Electrum as Electrum is able to restore BIP39 wallets.

Thanks. So, I can create a BIP39 seed mnemonic in any other wallet, restore it in Electrum and be sure that I can restore all funds with this seed in the future in any BIP39 compatible wallet, right?  

There are downsides to this approach (the seed mnemonic will NOT be backed up in the wallet file, so you won't be able to extract it from the wallet file later if you lose your offline copy of the seed mnemonic etc).

Be stuck with an irreversible 13-word seed in case Electrum ceases to exist some day is a more serious thing.

Thanks!

[pooya87]

in case Electrum ceases to exist some day

this is impossible to happen!
Electrum is not just some compiled closed source application you download and use. the source has always been open for everyone to see and store: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum
what can happen is that the developers may stop working on it (unlikely though) but even if that happens you still have the source code and although you may not understand it but it is python and you can get any python developer to extract the part related to seeds for you for your recovery.

[HCP]

It was _13_ words long by default when I created a new wallet. (linux version)

Interesting, I've not seen it do that with newer versions of Electrum.

Thanks. So, I can create a BIP39 seed mnemonic in any other wallet, restore it in Electrum and be sure that I can restore all funds with this seed in the future in any BIP39 compatible wallet, right?

Theoretically, yes.

Be stuck with an irreversible 13-word seed in case Electrum ceases to exist some day is a more serious thing.

The algorithm for converting an Electrum seed mnemonic -> seed -> addresses is open source and published... it can't just magically vanish. Even if the developer stopped working on it, then are plenty of copies of the code around... and it won't make your currently installed version of Electrum magically stop working either.


It is a little frustrating that Electrum uses non-BIP39 compliant seed mnemonics by default (I do understand why ThomasV has chosen to do so), but it is good that it supports using BIP39 seed mnemonics if you create one elsewhere. Just make sure you use a good "offline" wallet to generate the seed mnemonic and also that you understand how to minimise the risks of leaking that seed mnemonic during creation and/or entry into Electrum. Also, make sure you have solid offline backups, because like I said, you can't recover it from the wallet file generated with a BIP39 seed mnemonic (although, the wallet file will still contain the xprv) like you can with a wallet file created by a "native" Electrum seed mnemnonic

[Abdussamad]

You have a few options:

1. You could export all the private keys of addresses that have already been generated by the wallet. Wallet menu > private key >export will do that. But as you use your wallet it'll derive new addresses from the seed so your backup will quickly go stale.

2. Another approach is to simply archive a copy of electrum along with the seed backup. Even if electrum development stops in future and all copies of the software disappear from the interwebz you will have what you need to derive address specific private keys from your seed.

3. Finally you can archive the extended private key and note down the derivation path electrum uses. The assumption here is that there will be bip32 wallets in future that can make sense of your xprv. I wouldn't do this if you're using anything other than a p2pkh wallet (with addresses beginning with 1) because the chances of other wallets supporting your yprv/zprv etc. are lower. If you want to do this then go to view menu > show console, switch to console tab and then type getmasterprivate(). The derivation path for p2pkh wallets is m/n/i where n is 0 for the external chain and 1 for change addresses while i is the address index (first address in chain starts at 0, second is at 1 and so on).

IMO 2 is the best option.

[jackg]

in case Electrum ceases to exist some day

this is impossible to happen!
Electrum is not just some compiled closed source application you download and use. the source has always been open for everyone to see and store: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum
what can happen is that the developers may stop working on it (unlikely though) but even if that happens you still have the source code and although you may not understand it but it is python and you can get any python developer to extract the part related to seeds for you for your recovery.

If anything is ever deleted from the internet, someone usually has a copy of this stuff.
Much like bitcoin's blockchain, Electrum is stored on a lot of peoples' computers, it's unlikely there will ever be a point when you can't extract your addresses and private keys at least with your seed.

If they do stop producing their app, someone else will have a compatible wallet or may even take over the development of electrum.

[pooya87]

in case Electrum ceases to exist some day

this is impossible to happen!
Electrum is not just some compiled closed source application you download and use. the source has always been open for everyone to see and store: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum
what can happen is that the developers may stop working on it (unlikely though) but even if that happens you still have the source code and although you may not understand it but it is python and you can get any python developer to extract the part related to seeds for you for your recovery.

If anything is ever deleted from the internet, someone usually has a copy of this stuff.
Much like bitcoin's blockchain, Electrum is stored on a lot of peoples' computers, it's unlikely there will ever be a point when you can't extract your addresses and private keys at least with your seed.

If they do stop producing their app, someone else will have a compatible wallet or may even take over the development of electrum.

the good thing is that you don't even have to trust the person who is giving you the wallet, like downloading the binary from some other website because the releases are signed and as long as you verify their PGP signatures using the right public key (0x2BD5824B7F9470E6) you are fine since there is no way of changing the signatures without having ThomasV's private key.

[samuel-sd]

Finally, I created I BIP39 seed with another wallet on an offline device and restored this wallet in electrum.
Now I know that I can easily restore my wallet because BIP39 seed is very common and it's supported by almost all wallets.

[jackg]

Finally, I created I BIP39 seed with another wallet on an offline device and restored this wallet in electrum.
Now I know that I can easily restore my wallet because BIP39 seed is very common and it's supported by almost all wallets.

You could've just made a regular seed with electrum and use a BIP39/BIP44 derivation path though?

Anyway, it's good that your potential issue is solved now.

[samuel-sd]

It was _13_ words long by default when I created a new wallet. (linux version)

Interesting, I've not seen it do that with newer versions of Electrum.

This is an empty wallet, no need to hack it

[HCP]

You could've just made a regular seed with electrum and use a BIP39/BIP44 derivation path though?

No, he couldn't. That's the whole point of this thread. Electrum seed mnemonics are NOT BIP39 compatible. If you try and put an Electrum seed menmonic into a BIP39 wallet, it will tell you that it is invalid and/or that the checksum has failed.

The algorithm for creating the mnemonic from the same "seed" (ie. the big random number) is different... so even if you start with the same "seed", Electrum will generate a different mnemonic to a BIP39 wallet.

[Abdussamad]

edit sorry my bad.

[myfrogger]

You could've just made a regular seed with electrum and use a BIP39/BIP44 derivation path though?

No, he couldn't. That's the whole point of this thread. Electrum seed mnemonics are NOT BIP39 compatible. If you try and put an Electrum seed menmonic into a BIP39 wallet, it will tell you that it is invalid and/or that the checksum has failed.

The algorithm for creating the mnemonic from the same "seed" (ie. the big random number) is different... so even if you start with the same "seed", Electrum will generate a different mnemonic to a BIP39 wallet.

This is very good to know.  For long term storage it's maybe a good idea to use a BIP39 compatible seed & also archive a copy of electrum software.