Coming back to mining - Dual 5970 + GTX280

[snedie]

So at £0.1849 (GBP) (18.49 pence) per Kw/h, is it going to be worth mining again?

I stopped a few months back when the fan on a 5970 literally exploded in the housing, but I'd like to start again. I'm estimating usage at around 830watts (Very rough approx of 700Watts for 2 5970's and 130 watts for a 280).

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[Litt]

http://tinyurl.com/5tve9b4 This should help. 

[cicada]

Wait, I don't get .. oh I see what you did there! 

/goes off to investigate Runescape

[sadpandatech]

So at £0.1849 (GBP) (18.49 pence) per Kw/h, is it going to be worth mining again?

I stopped a few months back when the fan on a 5970 literally exploded in the housing, but I'd like to start again. I'm estimating usage at around 830watts (Very rough approx of 700Watts for 2 5970's and 130 watts for a 280).

at over 18 pence per KWH, not just no, but fuggin bloody hell no!  ;p

[DeathAndTaxes]

The GTX280 is horribly inefficient.  Gets about 60MH/s.  I think 130W is underestimating.  At 100% load looks like it pulls about ~180W.    No reason to even consider running that.

The 5970 are at best break even.
If we assume 1500 MH/s & 700W total system load that means you would generate ~27BTC per month and consume 500 kWh of power.
AT 0.1849 GBP per kWh thats 93GBP.  Break even is ~3.45 GBP.

Looks like price is currently barely above that. 

BTW I think 700W is a little high realisticly more like 260W per card plus system power but even if you redo the math @ 600W you are still pretty much break even.

[Brian DeLoach]

Where do you live? .29 USD cents Kw/h is pretty high.

[snedie]

Where do you live? .29 USD cents Kw/h is pretty high.

UK (GB...England, what ever you guys like to call us lol). The UK just had a 30% price hike on energy bills 

[RyNinDaCleM]

Where do you live? .29 USD cents Kw/h is pretty high.

UK (GB...England, what ever you guys like to call us lol). The UK just had a 30% price hike on energy bills 

30%...ouch!

[bronan]

lol
guess more countries did have a look at how the netherlands get their people poor
now that a german company named rwe took over one of the biggest dutch energy companies, i kept an eye on the german prices for energy as well, and since they took over i see the prices slowly go up in germany too
First they where slightly cheaper but intime they gained a lot and seem to me are now close to 0.33 euro cents
dutch pay enormous extra taxes over the previous taxes and so called transport costs which adds without tax again 0.13 euro cents to the mix, i have asked the energy company to show me what i actaully have to pay.
Now ofcourse they are probably again going to make it hard for us to understand what you are paying as they did all previous years. By that i mean getting 3 to 5 different bills over different parts and time periods
All to hide that you actually pay the top euro price in the whole of europa.
If i calculated it right the price for electricity + energy tax is 0.23 cents then we must pay transport costs + flatfee for each year which is 379.90 euro + monthly payement for the meter which in my case adds another 112 euro
At the end the governement add another 19% tax over the total amount
So if i calculated it right will give me a total price of 0.44 euro cents per kwh, i hope soon to get this comfirmed by my energy company. But again i am not convinced they are going to show the real kwh price. They probably come up again with only the electra price counted for their part in it.

Now back on topic is it worth running i fear for us its not even enough to cover 15 minutes
I have been 32 hours on a pool and made the enormous amount of 0.09827091 BTC
For that i run 2 pc's one with a 4770 which makes 70 Mhash/s but the system needs about 345 watts to run.
The other is a system with a 5870 which makes  380 Mhash/s but since its build to game hours and hours i has many big fans so eats alot of power also probably around 520 watts total
If i simply take the value of the BTC at current sell price i have made 0.28 cents in about 32 hours running near 850 watts system....
Both system have only one pci-e slot so 2 cards in one i can not do.

[snedie]

The largest contributing factor to EU price rises in electricity is the shutting down of NPP's after what happened in Japan: As if our parliaments are so stupid to think that something as bad could happen here. Sure there is the possibility of a Chernobyl type incident in which a team of workers ballsed up a reactor, but wtih modern technology this simply couldn't happen unless done deliberately. The simple fact is that NPP's produce far cheaper and cleaner energy than even so called "green powers" such as wind farms, and with fossil fuels going up in price all the time we should all be building NPP's as quick as possible.

There is even a fusion project under way in Europe (collaboration with US teams) which is despiratly trying to source £35m, the UK government is spending £250m on installing new internet services.....who gives a crap about fast internet when you can't afford to run a pc?

Well thats my little rant over 

[cicada]

There is even a fusion project under way in Europe (collaboration with US teams) which is despiratly trying to source £35m, the UK government is spending £250m on installing new internet services.....who gives a crap about fast internet when you can't afford to run a pc?

Well thats my little rant over 

Welcome to politics

More and/or louder voices are clammoring for better/cheaper/faster internet, but everyone just pays their utility bills without thinking about it.  Current energy providers are also generally pressuring against competing sources of cheaper/cleaner energy, at least in the US.

That and thanks to Japan's recent troubles nobody wants to touch nuclear power, even though it's the best power source we have available with current technology.

It's really a damn shame, we could all have $0.03/kWh power costs, and the providers of nuclear power would still be making a hefty profit.

[snedie]

There is even a fusion project under way in Europe (collaboration with US teams) which is despiratly trying to source £35m, the UK government is spending £250m on installing new internet services.....who gives a crap about fast internet when you can't afford to run a pc?

Well thats my little rant over 

Welcome to politics

More and/or louder voices are clammoring for better/cheaper/faster internet, but everyone just pays their utility bills without thinking about it.  Current energy providers are also generally pressuring against competing sources of cheaper/cleaner energy, at least in the US.

That and thanks to Japan's recent troubles nobody wants to touch nuclear power, even though it's the best power source we have available with current technology.

It's really a damn shame, we could all have $0.03/kWh power costs, and the providers of nuclear power would still be making a hefty profit.

With fusion technology (50 years away if no one will fund them, 20 years if they get as much funding as we spend killing each other) we'd practically have free electricity from a 100% safe and clean source that has almost limitless fuel (Water/Deuterium). As you quite rightly say though, we live in a capitalist society where making things cheaper doesn't suit the fat cats. The stupid part is that out governments to realise that free energy would lead to a massive economic boom, gaining them more taxes anyway.....

[Jabba]

Just one word to NPP:

the calculated cost for this type of energy does not include the confinement of the nuclear waste. At this point the NPP companies simply give back the responsibility to the governments and don't care anymore.
So it's on the tax payer (again) to come up for these cost. As there was still no confinement found for eternal storage the cost are quite high - not to say astronomically high. If you add them to the originally calculated cost the price won't stay this low. Anyway you need to add the imminent risk and the cost to avoid accidents you'll see that NPP ain't that cheap anymore.
The imminent risk is also not a one time charge but a charge that we and all following generations have to pay as you need (many) people to watch our waste permanently for the next thousands of years.

BTT

Jabba

[DeathAndTaxes]

Just one word to NPP:

the calculated cost for this type of energy does not include the confinement of the nuclear waste. At this point the NPP companies simply give back the responsibility to the governments and don't care anymore.

Not true (at least not in the US) every kWh of nuclear power ever produced includes a payment to the US govt for long term storage of spent fuel.  The govt has simply taken the money and done nothing with it.

Long term storage in a deep geological repository has very little continual cost beyond initial construction.  Just some security and monitoring. 

[Jabba]

Just one word to NPP:

the calculated cost for this type of energy does not include the confinement of the nuclear waste. At this point the NPP companies simply give back the responsibility to the governments and don't care anymore.

Not true (at least not in the US) every kWh of nuclear power ever produced includes a payment to the US govt for long term storage of spent fuel.  The govt has simply taken the money and done nothing with it.

Long term storage in a deep geological repository has very little continual cost beyond initial construction.  Just some security and monitoring. 

Exactly. The amount of this payment does not take the into account hat all radiated material needs to be repacked and relocated from time to time. That's why we (Europe) do not have a reliable deep geological repository. We do have some which are named as 'intermediate repository'.
You should see the pictures of mounted barrels falling into each other, leaking...

Anyway we can only go for green energy and maybe in the near future fusion power might become an alternative. Until then the increase of power consumption needs to be stopped by building better isolated houses (especially no more skyscrapers and houses like in China, India or the USA) and the reduction of air condition usage.

Jabba

[snedie]

Norway is already constructing a long term fission waste storage facility deep underground, considering the fact that fossil fuels will run out long before fusion power takes its place we should be building similar structures world wide, not shutting the plants down instead.

Also, the barrels falling on one another you speak of, can you please provide info on which EUROPEAN country is committing this act?

[Jabba]

Of course I can give you some details.
The country I'm talking about is Germany - don't even think that it looks much different in other countries. Fukushima showed us...

Here's an article (German) which describes a depository where light nuclear waste is stored since the 60s. Now water is leaking in and the waste has to be removed at the estimated price of 4.000.000.000 EUR. It'll take approx 10 years to get this location cleaned up. Per day 12.000 l of water are seeping in. In total 100.000 t of light nuclear waste need to be removed as the mine is about to collapse.
http://www.taz.de/Noch-mehr-Atommuell-nach-Gorleben-/!79385/
http://www.verlagshaus-jaumann.de/core.php?dat=Y29tcG9uZW50PW5ld3MmYWN0aW9uPXNob3cmeElEPW5ld3NCeUlEJm5ld3NJRD02NzY0MjAmcGFyZW50SUQ9ODgmbmF2aWdhdGlvbklEPTk2

Here you can find a desription how the barrels have been filled in. On one of the pictures you can see the way how it was done - start thinking on your own.
http://www.asse-archiv.de/fileadmin/ASSE/PDF/Veranstaltungen/1-Info_Herbert_Meyer-web.pdf

I'm not a member of Greenpeace or left oriented. I just keep my eyes open on what is happening around the world.

Greetz

Jabba

[snedie]

Well it's good to see a person who doesn't just talk out their ass for once 

I completely agree that this example is a monstrosity, but could I also point out the fact the facility in that example was constructed in 1978, a time in which safety protocols where much more relaxed; no excuse however, but I feel I can "justify" this happening with the development of fossil fuel power plants....

When we first started to mass burn coal and oil for producing power, we did not in any way filter the emissions from these plants. It was only when scientists realised the effect of those emissions on the environment (Not the climate, cannot stand global warming scams given clear evidence that the atmosphere isn't anywhere near any kind of "danger point") that power plants where forced to correct the issues, something which is still an on-going campaign in many developing countries.

The nuclear power industry is following a similar course to find the safest operating standards possible, something which Norway is taking wholeheartedly with the production of a dedicated, concrete lined cavern to hold nuclear waste securely for a few thousand years. Greenpeace officials have themselves said (and I can't for the life of me find the evidence, so take it or leave it  ) that nuclear power is something they should have supported from day 1 given the adverse effects fossil fuel's have had to date. It's is major setbacks in development that have led to NPP companies to skip updating health and safety guidelines in order to stay in business, look at Chernobyl, a disaster caused by lack of clear guidelines which allowed a junior operator to directly control a reactor.

One last thing, I can't agree with your comment on Fukushima, it's like saying that the trade centres collapsed because there wasn't enough fire insulation. Fukushima is a rare incident caused by two major natural disasters one after the other, not because of any lack of safety regulations: Storing spent fuel in "baths" is common at every reactor, and must be done in order to cool the fuel sufficiently enough for long term storage. These baths have multiple backup systems, just like at Fukushima, and loosing all of them at once is something unpredictable. 

[Jabba]

I agree in almost all of your statements.

But just one more thing (Sorry, Steve):

If we don't have to deposit nuclear waste we won't come into a situation where we have to foresee the unpredictable. So IMHO I would like to go for some simple, undangerous measures:

- green / clean energy (water, wind, solar)
- reduction of energy usage/waste
- recycling of already mined materials

Everyone of us can do something on this like driving bicycle, using trains, shut down their PCs (uuups, wrong forum). Anyway, I'm also a passionate miner and have optimized the power usage of my rigs which is above 2MHashes / W.

Greetz

Jabba

[snedie]

Agree with you whole heartedly, I even went as far as to walk to university (3.5m hike, not just around the corner) so I could get in a little exercise to boot rather than taking the bus. I even shut down 2/3 of my computer screens and my amplifiers until I plan to play games (or need the real estate) or listen to music, probably saves less than 0.6kw/h per day but better than not doing it.

Solar power has seen some really huge developments with hot salt plants which can provide power at night too, but as far as I am aware only one of these exists (don't keep up with it) and they cost a fortune to build, far more than a fossil fuel plant so places where they would work such as India are highly unlikely to be building them any time soon.

Wind farms I love the idea of, but although they get a lot of support from climate activists, conservationists are consistently halting their production in the UK. Only in the last 10 days did a major contract get lost to a foreign nation because activists protested against building the turbines on non protected land because it "looked nice".....how nice is our land going to look when people can't even afford to drive and see it? Seen as they know much more about the land than the government does, why can't THEY make plans to install the turbines elsewhere in collaboration with the government rather than forcing them to spend years finding new areas.

The fact remains that the western world is too accustomed to it's electronic lifestyle to move backwards, and we have less than 100 years in order to find a viable alternative: Fusion power is planned to be at production phases within this time, but that doesn't mean the majority of our societies could afford to pay the ever increasing energy bills in the mean time. Until then, in my opinion, nuclear power can provide us with the stop gap needed to reach this point, and with careful planning between our governments and the industry, we can handle the toxic by-products in a safe and controled environment which will protect humans, wildlife and the environment until it becomes safe (Yes I realise this is in around 100,000 - 500,000 years).