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Author Topic: Environmentalism  (Read 5941 times)
Elwar
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October 07, 2011, 01:43:25 AM
 #81

You can't homestead an ocean.  Japanese whalers would have first claim. 

Interesting concept though.  It assumes that people will take care of the species if they own it.  I'd want a guarantee as there are a minority of jerks in the world and if one owned all whales he should not have the right to exterminate them but assuming a decent owner you are probably correct.


You can homestead a piece of the ocean in the same way that you can homestead a piece of land. You establish "residency" in a way that allows others to understand that you are the rightful owner. On land you have to clearly mark your territory and live there for a few years. There are plenty of ways with modern technology to mark your territory in the ocean.

As for whales, just like cows, whales could be herded and sold in the same way. There would be a disincentive to let whales go extinct.

Here is an article that addresses bluefin tuna: http://mises.org/daily/4879
"If people owned portions of the ocean, then the bluefin tuna would become as ubiquitous as cattle."

As for the fish or whales traveling from property to property:
Quote
To be sure, there would be logistical difficulties in privatizing the oceans. For example, if it turned out to be too costly to sink large nets deep enough into the water at the property lines, then the fish could easily swim from one owner's property into another's. The situation would be analogous to one on land before ranchers developed barbed-wire fencing.

In such a scenario, one solution might be for entrepreneurs to buy many adjacent chunks in order to own an enormous volume of ocean water, so that the owner(s) of any consolidated property could expect to reap most of the benefits from limiting the amount of fishing that could take place on its surface.

Alternatively, it might make more sense to establish property rights in the sea creatures themselves, analogous to branding of cattle. To track their swimming property, the owners might use radio collars (for whales and large fish) or coat the schools of smaller fish with a harmless radioactive substance.


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October 07, 2011, 04:17:01 AM
 #82

Everything Robert P. Murphy says isn't really bad, but it's not well thought out all. This stems from the fact that he is no ocean ecologist. He simply isn't qualified to address the feasibility of his suggestions without a better understanding of marine ecosystems. Secondly, he seems to be completely unaware of the aesthetic quality of wilderness, unspoiled by humans. And aesthetics aside, he's apparently completely unaware of the productive capacity of unspoiled wilderness (in this case, ocean wilderness). I kind of feel sorry for these people - bean counters who don't really understand the fullness of life.

For one thing, the net idea is not only unrealistic, it's actually rather disgusting. Fences fragment ecosystems, and this doesn't even address the harm they would cause. Tagging isn't much better, for different reasons.

The immediate solution is to recognize the problem, stop overfishing, and educate the public. The ultimate solution might be to use technology to grow fish meat (not the whole fish) in high tech factories. Demand and innovation will likely make this possible once the real environmental issues are acknowledged.
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October 07, 2011, 07:46:56 AM
 #83

You can't homestead an ocean.  Japanese whalers would have first claim. 

Interesting concept though.  It assumes that people will take care of the species if they own it.  I'd want a guarantee as there are a minority of jerks in the world and if one owned all whales he should not have the right to exterminate them but assuming a decent owner you are probably correct.


You can homestead a piece of the ocean in the same way that you can homestead a piece of land. You establish "residency" in a way that allows others to understand that you are the rightful owner. On land you have to clearly mark your territory and live there for a few years. There are plenty of ways with modern technology to mark your territory in the ocean.
...snip...


So you live in a boat in the Antarctic whaling grounds a few years.  A Japanese whaler comes along and kills the whales around your boat.  What you gonna do?  Sue them?  Threaten to sink them? Stage a sit down protest on your little boat?  Or face the fact that homesteading the ocean is no more viable a concept than homesteading the clouds?

Please - its great to have new ideas but at least try to make them a little practical.

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October 07, 2011, 02:04:45 PM
 #84

You can't homestead an ocean.  Japanese whalers would have first claim. 

Interesting concept though.  It assumes that people will take care of the species if they own it.  I'd want a guarantee as there are a minority of jerks in the world and if one owned all whales he should not have the right to exterminate them but assuming a decent owner you are probably correct.


You can homestead a piece of the ocean in the same way that you can homestead a piece of land. You establish "residency" in a way that allows others to understand that you are the rightful owner. On land you have to clearly mark your territory and live there for a few years. There are plenty of ways with modern technology to mark your territory in the ocean.
...snip...


So you live in a boat in the Antarctic whaling grounds a few years.  A Japanese whaler comes along and kills the whales around your boat.  What you gonna do?  Sue them?  Threaten to sink them? Stage a sit down protest on your little boat?  Or face the fact that homesteading the ocean is no more viable a concept than homesteading the clouds?

Please - its great to have new ideas but at least try to make them a little practical.

What would you do in that situation? Give up and quit?

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October 07, 2011, 02:07:51 PM
 #85

You can't homestead an ocean.  Japanese whalers would have first claim. 

Interesting concept though.  It assumes that people will take care of the species if they own it.  I'd want a guarantee as there are a minority of jerks in the world and if one owned all whales he should not have the right to exterminate them but assuming a decent owner you are probably correct.


You can homestead a piece of the ocean in the same way that you can homestead a piece of land. You establish "residency" in a way that allows others to understand that you are the rightful owner. On land you have to clearly mark your territory and live there for a few years. There are plenty of ways with modern technology to mark your territory in the ocean.
...snip...


So you live in a boat in the Antarctic whaling grounds a few years.  A Japanese whaler comes along and kills the whales around your boat.  What you gonna do?  Sue them?  Threaten to sink them? Stage a sit down protest on your little boat?  Or face the fact that homesteading the ocean is no more viable a concept than homesteading the clouds?

Please - its great to have new ideas but at least try to make them a little practical.

What would you do in that situation? Give up and quit?

I'd not get into such a ridiculous situation.  I don't have years to waste settling the oceans and I don't have a navy that could defeat the states that would have to be forced to accept my homestead.

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October 07, 2011, 02:44:00 PM
 #86

What would you do in that situation? Give up and quit?

I'd not get into such a ridiculous situation.  I don't have years to waste settling the oceans and I don't have a navy that could defeat the states that would have to be forced to accept my homestead.

Huh, OK. Can we all just agree that you have a severe lack of imagination, and leave it at that?

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October 07, 2011, 03:13:26 PM
 #87

What would you do in that situation? Give up and quit?

I'd not get into such a ridiculous situation.  I don't have years to waste settling the oceans and I don't have a navy that could defeat the states that would have to be forced to accept my homestead.

Huh, OK. Can we all just agree that you have a severe lack of imagination, and leave it at that?

Is that your way of saying that homesteading the Antarctic seas requires a hyperactive imagination?  As in its just a fantasy?

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October 07, 2011, 03:24:45 PM
 #88

What would you do in that situation? Give up and quit?

I wholeheartedly encourage you to become a proponent of protecting the environment, in whatever way you can. Start by learning about it and its importance. From there, you'll be in a better position to understand that meddling with the environment is not a good thing. Then, when solutions that are proposed which can cause damage, you won't be the one proposing them. Instead, you'll be the one showing everyone that something better is required.

Consider this: the oceans, in their natural state, are probably the single most important thing on this planet. Everything else follows from that. Everything.
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October 07, 2011, 04:01:57 PM
 #89

Is that your way of saying that homesteading the Antarctic seas requires a hyperactive imagination?  As in its just a fantasy?

There is already work being done on this. They refer to it as seasteading instead of homesteading. Same concept.



There is a lot being put into this in an open sourced way. Here is an engineering report on seasteading:
http://seasteading.org/files/research/TSI/engineering/Feb2011_Report_p1.pdf

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October 07, 2011, 04:03:50 PM
 #90

he seems to be completely unaware of the aesthetic quality of wilderness, unspoiled by humans.

You seem to be completely unaware of the aesthetic quality of purpose built engineering that fulfills a need.

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October 07, 2011, 04:04:13 PM
 #91

Is that your way of saying that homesteading the Antarctic seas requires a hyperactive imagination?  As in its just a fantasy?

There is already work being done on this. They refer to it as seasteading instead of homesteading. Same concept.



There is a lot being put into this in an open sourced way. Here is an engineering report on seasteading:
http://seasteading.org/files/research/TSI/engineering/Feb2011_Report_p1.pdf

Again, the key issue is that the Japanese and every other nation with a navy has to accept your "seastead"  I love the concept, but to scale up to the point where is matters, it will need a navy to defend it.

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October 07, 2011, 04:19:45 PM
 #92

he seems to be completely unaware of the aesthetic quality of wilderness, unspoiled by humans.

You seem to be completely unaware of the aesthetic quality of purpose built engineering that fulfills a need.

Absolutely untrue. Furthermore, if it was true, that does not make my statement any less true.

Nets in the ocean to demarcate property boundaries quite possibly qualifies as one of the most stupid, irresponsible and environmentally destructive ideas ever proposed by any human being.
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October 07, 2011, 04:21:59 PM
 #93

Is that your way of saying that homesteading the Antarctic seas requires a hyperactive imagination?  As in its just a fantasy?

There is already work being done on this. They refer to it as seasteading instead of homesteading. Same concept.

Completely irrelevant. A decommissioned oil platform reconfigured to become a miniature city does not qualify as homesteading the ocean.
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October 07, 2011, 05:50:53 PM
 #94

Completely irrelevant. A decommissioned oil platform reconfigured to become a miniature city does not qualify as homesteading the ocean.

If a small community evolves in an area of the sea and creates an economy based upon harvesting and herding fish/whales, then they will be very resentful toward any ship coming into their proximity to steal their livestock.

And they would have the incentive to encourage replication and growth of the fish and whale populations. While having the incentive to protect it.

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October 07, 2011, 05:51:50 PM
 #95

Again, the key issue is that the Japanese and every other nation with a navy has to accept your "seastead"  I love the concept, but to scale up to the point where is matters, it will need a navy to defend it.

That is the key issue? Really?

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October 07, 2011, 05:54:47 PM
 #96

If a small community evolves in an area of the sea and creates an economy based upon harvesting and herding fish/whales, then they will be very resentful toward any ship coming into their proximity to steal their livestock.

And they would have the incentive to encourage replication and growth of the fish and whale populations. While having the incentive to protect it.

Livestock are not representative of a protected environment. They are in fact the antithesis of it. Your scenario sounds like cattle ranching, which is destructive to the environment. As I've said many times, learn about the environment and ecosystems. You've already been called out because of your ignorant post about nets.
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October 07, 2011, 05:55:19 PM
 #97

Completely irrelevant. A decommissioned oil platform reconfigured to become a miniature city does not qualify as homesteading the ocean.

If a small community evolves in an area of the sea and creates an economy based upon harvesting and herding fish/whales, then they will be very resentful toward any ship coming into their proximity to steal their livestock.

And they would have the incentive to encourage replication and growth of the fish and whale populations. While having the incentive to protect it.

And if a warship comes along...the small community becomes history.  As an solution to pollution and overfishing by industrial countries, small seasteads are simply a distraction.  

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October 07, 2011, 06:07:41 PM
 #98

You've already been called out because of your ignorant post about nets.

Wow, I have been called out.  Roll Eyes

The article I quoted is speaking of harvesting fish. Nets are not a new concept in fish farming.

Quote
Badinotti produced and sold more than 153 fish farming nets and 59 birdnets for the new farms that are coming offshore the Tunisian sea, in the first seven months of 2010; a total production of over 90,000 kg of nets is expected.

http://www.badinotti.com/news.html


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October 07, 2011, 06:11:57 PM
 #99

Your scenario sounds like cattle ranching, which is destructive to the environment. 

You were asking about saving the whales...

Last time I checked the cattle population has done nothing but climb...at around 1.3 billion as of 2009.

Such growth at even 1 millionth through property rights would be worth it.

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October 07, 2011, 06:22:32 PM
 #100

Your scenario sounds like cattle ranching, which is destructive to the environment. 

You were asking about saving the whales...

Last time I checked the cattle population has done nothing but climb...at around 1.3 billion as of 2009.

Such growth at even 1 millionth through property rights would be worth it.

You just don't get it, do you? Cattle ranching is destructive to the environment. Whales, if left alone, neither destroy the environment, nor go extinct, except by natural forces. Leave the oceans alone. Let the massive amount of knowledge they have in store for us be discovered.

Stop overfishing. Small fish farms in certain areas are fine. But leave the vast expanse of ocean out there wild and free.

Seriously, pick up a book on the environment.
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