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Author Topic: Any Trusted BTC Wallet?  (Read 389 times)
HCP
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July 21, 2018, 05:25:53 AM
 #21

I think it's actually easier to recommend wallets people should NOT trust... So, basically... ANY wallet that does not give you access to the private keys!

If you do not control the private keys, you do not control the bitcoins.

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July 21, 2018, 05:28:20 AM
 #22

So you have your opinion about hardware wallets, is it based on your personal experience or you know an example when some user lost his coins in a way that hardware wallet is hacked? How much is known to me something like that is did not happen so far, so why hardware wallets by you "provide the users a false sense of security"?
The occasional debates and threads about hardware wallets that has been appearing here in DT&D board, so far,
are enough for me to say that hardware wallets are no safer than alternative clients.
And your examples of bad things that could happen are mostly the user's fault, not the client's.

In addition, that's for sale, a product and involves money, a business.
Its sales will always depend on how it was advertised, and apparently, we all know how advertisement works.

That's my opinion, it's up to them to consider it.

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July 21, 2018, 06:25:09 AM
 #23

The occasional debates and threads about hardware wallets that has been appearing here in DT&D board, so far,
are enough for me to say that hardware wallets are no safer than alternative clients.

This is a quite funny statement.

I'd be interested to hear why you think that a hardware wallet (private keys generated + stored in an 'airgapped' offline environment, requires to physically press a button to approve transactions, can be run on an infected PC) has the same level of security as 'alternative clients'.

Desktop-/Mobile-/Web- wallets store your private keys on a device which is connected to the internet.
Desktop-/Mobile-/Web- wallets do NOT need a physical confirmation to send funds.
Desktop-/Mobile-/Web- wallets can NOT run on an infected PC without getting compromised.

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July 21, 2018, 09:39:22 AM
 #24


All the problems that you are indicating are possible problems with the OS, not with Electrum.
These problems can be solved if you switch to using Tails, for example. That already comes with the electrum installed. The seed you would have to put on a paper. But in a hardware Wallet, you also have to save it on paper.

Hardware wallet is very good. But they are also extremely expensive depending on where you live. They draw much more attention if you want to travel with it.

If the goal is to popularize the use, always recommend using a hardware wallet makes it harder for those who are starting now to be enchanted by the BTC. The initial cost gets very expensive. Just to put it in perspective, in Brazil buy a Ledger in a Big Store would cost more them half of a minimum wage.


But even if your OS is compromised, hardware wallets can work safe - private keys are inside of the device., Also you miss the point, Electrum seed is generated on PC, hardware wallet seed have no connection with you PC. However it is true seed need to be stored in a safe way, but this is just the question of security. I know for problem some users have regarding cost of hardware wallets, but it is less then 100$ for Ledger Nano S, security has no price if you hold significant amount of coins.

So you have your opinion about hardware wallets, is it based on your personal experience or you know an example when some user lost his coins in a way that hardware wallet is hacked? How much is known to me something like that is did not happen so far, so why hardware wallets by you "provide the users a false sense of security"?
The occasional debates and threads about hardware wallets that has been appearing here in DT&D board, so far,
are enough for me to say that hardware wallets are no safer than alternative clients.
And your examples of bad things that could happen are mostly the user's fault, not the client's.

In addition, that's for sale, a product and involves money, a business.
Its sales will always depend on how it was advertised, and apparently, we all know how advertisement works.

That's my opinion, it's up to them to consider it.

I respect your opinion, and certainly do not want to convince you that hardware wallets are ultimate solution for our coins safety. But hardware wallets prevent even users faults and possible threats which may appear on the user's computer, for me just enough to pay some money for extra security.

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Findingnemo
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July 21, 2018, 06:07:29 PM
 #25

Can someone name trusted bitcoin wallet/s..

If you are a newbie and going work online jobs you can use Coins.ph note this wallet is only available for the Southeast Asian country luckily if you're from here. It has many features and it been established and Trusted 4 years ago plus Millions of users internationally inside southeast Asia territory. Easy cash-in thru 7 Eleven and other banks. You can use your bitcoins to pay bills for electric, water, ISP, and also credit card. plus easy cash out thru third party bank like Security bank without transaction fees!
Coins.ph is an exchange right?So how can you suggest this as the trusted bitcoin wallet.If a trusted wallet means it has to give us private keys to control our bitcoins.For now I am using electrum for the long term storage and blockchain.info wallet as the web wallet which is more safer when compared to other online wallets.

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July 22, 2018, 04:51:15 PM
 #26

For now I am using electrum for the long term storage and blockchain.info wallet as the web wallet which is more safer when compared to other online wallets.

I wouldn't recommend electrum for real long-term storage.
If you really plan to hold long term (meaning you don't want/need to touch these coins regularly), a cold wallet would be more suitable.
This can either be accomplished by using a hardware wallet, creating a paper wallet or using an offline PC for storage only.

Electrum is only as secure as your whole setup (your OS, installed software; PC in general) is.


I also wouldn't call blockchain.info a 'safe' online wallet.
There is no real reason to think that it is anyway better than one of the other web wallets. Web wallets are generally way less secured than mobile-/desktop- wallets.

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July 23, 2018, 10:59:58 AM
 #27

I think the best option is blockchain, very simple compared to other wallets.
making transactions faster and simpler. I do not know just love it.
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July 23, 2018, 02:08:46 PM
 #28

I think it's actually easier to recommend wallets people should NOT trust... So, basically... ANY wallet that does not give you access to the private keys!

If you do not control the private keys, you do not control the bitcoins.
I totally comply with what you said cause the holder of wallet private keys is the holder the wallet Bitcoin but there are some wallet which are still vulnerable when planning to hold for long term. In addition, OP I want to know that using the safest wallet does not guarantee your safety if you dont avoid some human error which may expose your wallet or private keys to danger.

I will advice the OP to use bitcoin core, trezor, electrum, bread wallet or keep key.


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July 23, 2018, 05:26:07 PM
 #29

You can use blockchain wallet.
Blockchain is a wallet that works peer to peer transaction method that's why it cannot be hacked and it is also more secured than all other wallets.
I use blockchain wallet. You can use it but you have to careful. Don't give your password to anyone.

Thank you.

I think you're confusing "blockchain" and "blockchain.info" (or blockchain.com, now.)  Blockchain is a technology that cannot be hacked.
 Blockchain.com is a web wallet, which can indeed be hacked.

I use electrum, and a KeepKey.

The most secure wallet is a private key that's been engraved into a piece of titanium.  One of my bucket list projects...
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July 23, 2018, 06:07:38 PM
 #30

Can someone name trusted bitcoin wallet/s..

https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet

If you're just starting out, i'd stick to the desktop wallet section,
If you're holding a bit more, i'd stick to the hardware wallets, or investigate paper wallet or airgapped wallets.
I'd recommand you to stay away from the web wallets.

It's always worth noting to newbies that airgapping is most ideal in Linux than in Windows, for obvious reasons, including avoiding a plethora of malware and other assorted threats.

Even if your computer is airgapped, and has never touched the internet since you installed the OS, you still can get a virus via USB, CD, etc, so dealing only with open source software will always reduce these possible exploits by a big %.

Look into Ubuntu or Lubuntu if your computer is very old. You can always use Xubuntu as a good balance between performance and aesthetics.

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July 24, 2018, 06:27:40 AM
 #31

Even if your computer is airgapped, and has never touched the internet since you installed the OS, you still can get a virus via USB, CD, etc, so dealing only with open source software will always reduce these possible exploits by a big %.

While it is true that an airgapped computer can get infected by USB/CD/.. and that open source will definitely reduce this risk, a compromised offline computer does NOT directly mean a loss of funds.
This all depends on the malware and the usage of the offline PC.

A few examples:
1) If it is a simple malware which tries to dump private keys and uploads them onto a server, it won't be able to steal anything from the offline setup since a connection will never be established.

2) If it is an advanced malware which dumps private keys, waits for the next storage device to duplicate itself, to upload the private keys once it reaches an online PC it also can be warded off by simply never use a storage device which has been plugged in into the airgapped pc (e.g. do transfer unsigned TX with a CD which you afterwards destroy, and transfer the signed TX to an online PC via QR codes).

The real danger comes from an advanced malware (2) and a 'bad' user habit (e.g. using same USB to transfer TX's back and forth).
You can never negate every attack vector. The goal should be to make the possibility of getting the private keys compromised as low as possible while still keeping the usability in mind.


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July 24, 2018, 06:32:49 AM
 #32

The real danger comes from an advanced malware (2) and a 'bad' user habit (e.g. using same USB to transfer TX's back and forth).
You can never negate every attack vector. The goal should be to make the possibility of getting the private keys compromised as low as possible while still keeping the usability in mind.

You could set up a webcam for the offline pc and use that to load the tx rather than using a USB flash drive. A much more secure method this is, as you know for a fact that only the tx is being transferred.

Thanks for reading my post.
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July 24, 2018, 06:51:40 AM
 #33

The real danger comes from an advanced malware (2) and a 'bad' user habit (e.g. using same USB to transfer TX's back and forth).
You can never negate every attack vector. The goal should be to make the possibility of getting the private keys compromised as low as possible while still keeping the usability in mind.

You could set up a webcam for the offline pc and use that to load the tx rather than using a USB flash drive. A much more secure method this is, as you know for a fact that only the tx is being transferred.


Thats literally what i have mentioned 2 lines above the one you have quoted:

it also can be warded off by simply never use a storage device which has been plugged in into the airgapped pc (e.g. do transfer unsigned TX with a CD which you afterwards destroy, and transfer the signed TX to an online PC via QR codes).

The only difference is that i have mentioned a CD which will be destroyed, but thats related to the whole (second) point of my post.



It is still worth to note that this also does NOT mean 100% security.
An attacker could foist you a malicious version of a QR code reader, which will modify the transactions on transmission.

This, of course, is a very unrealistic attack vector. But the possibility does still exist. Especially if people have access to your offline machine (assuming the machine is accessable and the private keys are encrypted).

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July 24, 2018, 07:28:28 AM
 #34

--snip--
It's always worth noting to newbies that airgapping is most ideal in Linux than in Windows, for obvious reasons, including avoiding a plethora of malware and other assorted threats.

Even if your computer is airgapped, and has never touched the internet since you installed the OS, you still can get a virus via USB, CD, etc, so dealing only with open source software will always reduce these possible exploits by a big %.

Look into Ubuntu or Lubuntu if your computer is very old. You can always use Xubuntu as a good balance between performance and aesthetics.

--snip--
You could set up a webcam for the offline pc and use that to load the tx rather than using a USB flash drive. A much more secure method this is, as you know for a fact that only the tx is being transferred.

--snip--
The only difference is that i have mentioned a CD which will be destroyed, but thats related to the whole (second) point of my post.

It is still worth to note that this also does NOT mean 100% security.
An attacker could foist you a malicious version of a QR code reader, which will modify the transactions on transmission.

This, of course, is a very unrealistic attack vector. But the possibility does still exist. Especially if people have access to your offline machine (assuming the machine is accessable and the private keys are encrypted).

You guys are all making excellent points, but i personally feel we're going into a paranoid level of semantics here. IMHO, the odds of a $5 wrench attack is significantly higher than the odds of running into somebody that tailored an attack against these attack vectors (i could be wrong tough, but that's my gut feeling).

I think the most important thing the OP and other newcomers should remember about this thread:
  • web wallets => not good
  • exchange wallets => not good
  • mobile wallets => only for very small amounts (spending money: enough to buy a couple cups of coffee if you stumble upon a place that accepts BTC payments)
  • TRUSTED, up-to-date desktop wallets on a CLEAN up-to-date pc => good for small amounts (think: a couple hundred bucks in FIAT value equivalent)
  • properly generated paper wallets => good for large amounts
  • airgapped wallets => good for large amounts
  • hardware* wallets => good for large amounts


IF they're ever managing a BTC value whose FIAT equivalent they can't earn in a month, it *CAN* be a good idear to spread their funds over several trusted wallets
IF they're ever managing a BTC value whose FIAT equivalent they can't earn in a year, they should talk to a specialist that can walk them trough all kinds of paranoid scenario's they can protect themselfs against Wink

* thanking bob123 for discovering my typo Smiley

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July 24, 2018, 07:38:36 AM
 #35

You guys are all making excellent points, but i personally feel we're going into a paranoid level of semantics here. IMHO, the odds of a $5 wrench attack is significantly higher than the odds of running into somebody that tailored an attack against these attack vectors (i could be wrong tough, but that's my gut feeling).

Generally, yes. You are definitely right.
But imagine the scenario of a good 'friend' who does want to steal your funds. He probably won't just come to you and force you to give him your money.
This mostly does not only refer to friends, but to anyone who you know personally and who can't risk being recognized by you (legal actions, personal data known, etc.. ).



~snip~
  • TRUSTED, up-to-date desktop wallets on a CLEAN up-to-date pc => good for small amounts (think: a couple hundred bucks in FIAT value equivalent)
~snip~
  • desktop wallets => good for large amounts

I guess a small mistake has slipped in there.
It should be hardware wallet => good for large amounts instead of desktop wallet, i think ?

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July 24, 2018, 08:28:29 AM
 #36

--snip--
Generally, yes. You are definitely right.
But imagine the scenario of a good 'friend' who does want to steal your funds. He probably won't just come to you and force you to give him your money.
This mostly does not only refer to friends, but to anyone who you know personally and who can't risk being recognized by you (legal actions, personal data known, etc.. ).
I don't want to get caught up in the semantics of this discussion, and in theory you are 100% correct. The only thing i can say is that in my personal case (and i hope i represent most average users), i can honestly say i've never created an unencrypted paper wallet, created a hardware wallet without a strong pin, left a desktop wallet unlocked while i was no longer using it, left my seeds just laying about... So i guess somebody that legitimately entered my house would have a rather hard time getting his/her hands on my funds. I guess (in my personal case), the seed phrases would be the weakest link, i'm going to move them to my banksafe pretty soon .
I think in my personal case, i would fear the $5 wrench attack a lot more than the cleaning lady or one of my neigbors finding my wallet's seeds.

~snip~
  • TRUSTED, up-to-date desktop wallets on a CLEAN up-to-date pc => good for small amounts (think: a couple hundred bucks in FIAT value equivalent)
~snip~
  • desktop wallets => good for large amounts

I guess a small mistake has slipped in there.
It should be hardware wallet => good for large amounts instead of desktop wallet, i think ?

yup Smiley
Fixed the typo, thanks for the heads up Smiley

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July 25, 2018, 02:35:32 PM
 #37

i recomend Mycelium it is a mobile wallet that you can download in play store and apps store this is a safe wallet and you can keep the recovering keys in a cold storage,also you can set up a pin for your mobile,theres nothing to worry if your phone lost you can still recover your fund as well youre holding the recovering keys.

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July 25, 2018, 04:54:05 PM
 #38

I'd use a combination of something like Electrum, and a majority of your funds stored in a paper wallet. The percentage is entirely up to you, but only keep a small amount necessary in a hot wallet (vs cold storage).

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July 25, 2018, 09:21:25 PM
 #39

Blockchain.info, Coinbase

I personally don't have anything against these two. Nevertheless, a colleague had 72 hours delay recently before his transfer could be allowed on coinbase. The reason was simply because his account was denied verification because the registered name on the platform has one missing name in the actual acceptable ID card he wanted to use. While coinbase is doing a great work to prevent loss of an asset by delaying withdrawal, it became an issue on behalf of the asset owner.

In my own opinion, an hardware wallet is the best bet. It is worth the price as you increase your assets.

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July 26, 2018, 10:34:44 AM
 #40

What your device you want? Desktop or mobile. Electrum is the perfect choice
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