Split from main thread Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh

[Flying Hellfish]

Just as a side note, I think it is so silly when the left talks about reversing roe vs. wade. I very seriously doubt that they are going to go back and dust that one off. And even though I personally don't believe that abortion is a good thing, I would be upset if they did reverse it at this point. The decision has been made, move on to other things.

Yes us leftists are just silly to worry about something like that when the POTUS is literally the most anti-abortion president to ever sit in office.

I find it silly when the right talks about taking away a persons rights on what to do with their own body, safely and legally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAhkdfeV-DU

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[Divine.bc]

Just as a side note, I think it is so silly when the left talks about reversing roe vs. wade. I very seriously doubt that they are going to go back and dust that one off. And even though I personally don't believe that abortion is a good thing, I would be upset if they did reverse it at this point. The decision has been made, move on to other things.

Yes us leftists are just silly to worry about something like that when the POTUS is literally the most anti-abortion president to ever sit in office.

I find it silly when the right talks about taking away a persons rights on what to do with their own body, safely and legally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAhkdfeV-DU

There are a lot of things that point to this administration being against abortion, with out a doubt. But, that is the stance that a majority of the Republican party take on this issue. I don't intend to have a debate about abortion with you on this thread. So I will just say that I was wrong to say that it is silly of you to have that concern. However, I am fairly certain that they will not go back and reverse that ruling. 

[Flying Hellfish]

There are a lot of things that point to this administration being against abortion, with out a doubt. But, that is the stance that a majority of the Republican party take on this issue. I don't intend to have a debate about abortion with you on this thread. So I will just say that I was wrong to say that it is silly of you to have that concern. However, I am fairly certain that they will not go back and reverse that ruling.  

I do hope you're right, and to be fair I do hope it is silly to be worried!  Unfortunately the man in charge isn't giving out those vibes.  

[squatz1]

I agree I haven't read anything yet to indicate his nom won't get through.

I wonder how much influence Kavanaugh's apparent dislike of the EPA had on Trump.

I get concerned when in 2018 people are talking about Roe v Wade and taking away the decision of a women on what the fuck to do with her own body.  Frankly speaking it disgusts me to see people want to take away a person choice.  Safe, educated legal abortion being under attack in 2018 is mind boggling to me, but I guess that's the liberal in me coming out as I get older!

I can't see Kavanaugh's stance on Roe v Wade but he does come across as a bit of a conservative, along with a nod from a stong anti abortion POTUS, I can see why some Americans might be concerned.

His nomination will go through because of him being a Bush/ Romney / any other establishment Republican pick. It's the reason that Trump picked him, as he knows that he'll be able to get through the hearings and the confirmation and that the courts will lean conservative for decades to come.

The thing with Roe V Wade isn't taking away the decision of a women to do whatever they want with their body, it's giving the states the ability to decide (through the people, as they are the ones who are electing their state reps/assemblypeople) to decide if they want abortion to be legal within their state. I personally don't think the Federal government has any ability to decide what the states should govern on this, let the people decide on a state by state basis.

While many people hated Scalia for his decisions on certain things, I do think that how he explained his opposition to Roe V Wade - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj_MhS2u-Pk -- Check that out there.

Americans will be concerned of course, but abortion is (and will always be) a very contentious issue in the United States.

[mymenace]

I agree I haven't read anything yet to indicate his nom won't get through.

I wonder how much influence Kavanaugh's apparent dislike of the EPA had on Trump.

I get concerned when in 2018 people are talking about Roe v Wade and taking away the decision of a women on what the fuck to do with her own body.  Frankly speaking it disgusts me to see people want to take away a person choice.  Safe, educated legal abortion being under attack in 2018 is mind boggling to me, but I guess that's the liberal in me coming out as I get older!

I can't see Kavanaugh's stance on Roe v Wade but he does come across as a bit of a conservative, along with a nod from a stong anti abortion POTUS, I can see why some Americans might be concerned.

His nomination will go through because of him being a Bush/ Romney / any other establishment Republican pick. It's the reason that Trump picked him, as he knows that he'll be able to get through the hearings and the confirmation and that the courts will lean conservative for decades to come.

The thing with Roe V Wade isn't taking away the decision of a women to do whatever they want with their body, it's giving the states the ability to decide (through the people, as they are the ones who are electing their state reps/assemblypeople) to decide if they want abortion to be legal within their state. I personally don't think the Federal government has any ability to decide what the states should govern on this, let the people decide on a state by state basis.

While many people hated Scalia for his decisions on certain things, I do think that how he explained his opposition to Roe V Wade - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj_MhS2u-Pk -- Check that out there.

Americans will be concerned of course, but abortion is (and will always be) a very contentious issue in the United States.

decentralization of the nations law to allow communities to decide on laws that govern them directly


Direct Democracy

luvin it

[Flying Hellfish]

The thing with Roe V Wade isn't taking away the decision of a women to do whatever they want with their body, it's giving the states the ability to decide (through the people, as they are the ones who are electing their state reps/assemblypeople) to decide if they want abortion to be legal within their state.

The Federal Government is there to provide certain rights to ALL citizens of the union.  Being such a hotbed or important topic (I mean it could potentially directly affect about half of the citizens) I don't agree that it should be a state by state choice. IMO no matter where you're born as a women you should have the right to seek safe, legal options.  Pro life should focus on educating rather than banning. 

I get frustrated a little when people try to justify taking away anyone's ability to decide for themselves.  What gives anyone the right to decide for another person...  It's ignorant, sorry for being rude.

I personally don't think the Federal government has any ability to decide what the states should govern on this, let the people decide on a state by state basis.

Then why have a Fed at all, important issues that affect a significant % of the citizens seems like just a perfect thing for Federal intervention.  Which incidentally is probably why it made it to the supreme court originally!

[bill gator]

It's paramount that our SCOTUS nominees are strictly constitutionalist, in my opinion. Our constitution is one of the most (feasible) freedom preserving and provoking systems that has ever been thought up. There are foundational aspects of our society that need not be malleable, else our freedoms will ebb and flow to become whimsical and feckless.

I don't know enough about their personal politics, but conserving our constitution is what they (SCOTUS) are nominated to do. Anything that deteriorates freedom is unacceptable.

Pro life should focus on educating rather than banning.

Most Pro-Life advocates see an unborn fetus as a life; Abortion ends this life, therefore they argue that it is a violent crime against another life. From this lens, it would seem strange to approach it from simply educating as opposed to outlawing it. Murder isn't halted through education, there must be enforcement in order to preserve the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of their potential victim(s).

This actually is where I have yet to receive a good solution from that side, enforcement; I do not see a reasonable way to enforce anti-abortion that would be effective, but I am ignorant and would love to hear one.

I get frustrated a little when people try to justify taking away anyone's ability to decide for themselves.  What gives anyone the right to decide for another person...  It's ignorant, sorry for being rude.

This is how the other side feels about deciding to take away a life.

IMO no matter where you're born as a women you should have the right to seek safe, legal options.

The other side believes no matter where you are conceived you should have the right to seek a safe, legal birth.

Yes us leftists are just silly to worry about something like that when the POTUS is literally the most anti-abortion president to ever sit in office.

I think you're being sensational. Many presidents have been Pro-life, or anti-abortion; Even recently.

REAGAN: The litmus test that John says is in the Republican platform, says no more than the judges to be appointed should have a respect for innocent life. Now, I don't think that's a bad idea. I think all of us should have a respect for innocent life. With regard to the freedom of the individual for choice with regard to abortion, there's one individual who's not being considered at all. That's the one who is being aborted. And I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. I I think that, technically, I know this is a difficult and an emotional problem, and many people sincerely feel on both sides of this, but I do believe that maybe we could find the answer through medical evidence, if we would determine once and for all, is an unborn child a human being? I happen to believe it is.

Bill Clinton: Everyone knows life begins biologically at conception. No one knows when biology turns into humanity. Most abortions that don’t involve the life or health of the mother are chosen by scared young women and girls who don’t know what else to do. It’s hard to apply the criminal law to acts that a substantial portion of the citizenry doesn’t believe should be labeled crimes, (as with Prohibition). I thought then [in the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision] and still believe that the Court reached the right conclusion.

Source: My Life, by Bill Clinton, p.229 , Jun 21, 2004

BUSH: Surely we can find common ground to reduce the number of abortions in America. This is a very important topic, and it’s a very sensitive topic because a lot of good people disagree on the issue. I think what the next president ought to do is promote a culture of life in America. As a matter of fact, I think a noble goal for this country is that every child, born and unborn, ought to be protected in law and welcomed into life. What I do believe is, we can find good common ground on issues like parental notification or parental consent. And I know we need to ban partial-birth abortions. This is a place where my opponent and I have strong disagreements. I believe banning partial-birth abortion would be a positive step toward reducing the number of abortions in America.

Source: Presidential debate, Boston MA Oct 3, 2000

CARTER: I think abortion is wrong.

Source: The Third Carter-Ford Presidential Debate , Oct 22, 1976

Seems every living president besides one was (during their term(s)) arguably Pro-Life, at least anti-abortion so I'm not sure what you mean.

[robbylove]

Some cultures (religion) do not do abortions. Ever. Others, like female SJWs are 100% for it and I applaud them their great decision.
I have the feeling technology, not the evil conservatives , will end abortion in the future. Designer babies will be a thing, whether we like it or not. Parents (or parent) will create their perfect baby. The proceeding will be followed by the State from the very start. The fetus will have a social security number, a spot reserved in a daycare center; the rest of its life as a citizen already mapped by the system. Killing a future citizen will be a crime, because having a baby will be a 100% choice of commitment.

The post before mine was excellent.

[Flying Hellfish]

~Snip~

Honestly man, it may be hard to believe but I actually don't agree personally with abortion (barring certain extreme circumstances).  When my wife was pregnant with my son she had a test that indicated that he may be born with down syndrome.  We were given the option to abort the fetus and try again or continue to term.  For us there was no question, abortion was not an option, that was our boy either way!  The test proved to be a false positive and our son is happy and healthy thankfully.

My point is that this is a very personal "soul" searching decision that is unique to each individual and at some point a person should be able to take responsibility for their own decisions and ramification of those decisions.  

I still maintain it's unfair to take away a person choice, fortunately the Feds agree with me at this point!  And I pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster it doesn't change!

Just to note, I'm not an American citizen if that matters.  However I am extremely envious of some of the things you're government stands for!


I think at this point I should split the topic as I seem to have taken it way off topic!

[Flying Hellfish]

a person should be able to take responsibility for their own decisions and ramification of those decisions.  

One would think that taking responsibility would equate to raising the baby after conceiving it. Those tests are quite often false-positives, and I have heard countless stories that parallel exactly yours. Congratulations on having a healthy child, that's really great to hear.

There are particular groups in America that continually abort baby girls until they are pregnant with a boy. It's difficult to draw a line that anybody is pleased with.

I think at this point I should split the topic as I seem to have taken it way off topic!

I'll see myself out, I do honestly enjoy these kind of conversations. I don't know very much, so I'm always interesting in hearing someone out.

Absolutely no need to leave man, please don't I enjoy the intelligent discussion (its rare around here!).

One would think that taking responsibility would equate to raising the baby after conceiving it.

I would personally say that taking responsibility could equate to raising the baby.  I would also say that it could equate to living with the decision to not carry the fetus to term.  I can only imagine as you get older especially if you have children later that is a decision that will be on your mind and you will deal with the responsibilities of that choice.

I am glad that the government has not taken away the right of a person to choose that for themselves!

 

Edit:

In order to further discussion!

Most Pro-Life advocates see an unborn fetus as a life; Abortion ends this life, therefore they argue that it is a violent crime against another life. From this lens, it would seem strange to approach it from simply educating as opposed to outlawing it. Murder isn't halted through education, there must be enforcement in order to preserve the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of their potential victim(s).

Why not take it a step further and include masturbation and protected sex, one could argue and a lot of churches have argued this for a long time.  The line is fine IMO and that is why it should be up to the person to decided.

This actually is where I have yet to receive a good solution from that side, enforcement; I do not see a reasonable way to enforce anti-abortion that would be effective, but I am ignorant and would love to hear one.

The reality is you can't stop it, especially in 2018, Mexico, Canada and underground hook rooms will come back endangering young American Women.  We have seen it already.  Besides as Clinton said what are you going to do them put them in jail like hardened murders?  They're not criminals they're American women, mothers, daughters, sisters, wives of all of us.  They're also not stupid, a lot of women are intelligent lets not make an arbitrary choice for all of them.

I think you're being sensational. Many presidents have been Pro-life, or anti-abortion; Even recently.
~snip ref~
Seems every living president besides one was (during their term(s)) arguably Pro-Life, at least anti-abortion so I'm not sure what you mean.

To be honest I wish I was being a sensationalist.  There is a difference between being pro-life and being the most pro-life/anti abortion POTUS ever.  I agree most POTUS have been pro life but Trump like always takes it to the next level.  I personally think Trump is much more hard line about the issue as referenced in the link I left.  He thinks women who abort a fetus are criminals.  On top of that the man who got her pregnant is not responsible at all, at least not after he fucked her...

[squatz1]

I fail to know how to quote certain things (someone, please help me!), but I'm just going to respond in general. I don't think Potus has taken it to the next level; it's just been a LONG TIME since we've had a Pro-Life President in office and it's hard to see what their policy is.

Let me tell you that I think the Church's stance on contraceptives/birth control is a little much-- or a lot much rather -- I think a baby is a bay when the egg has been fertilized. Anytime before that is fair game-- this is my opinion and the opinion of many. I'm not saying that we should ban protected sex, we should ALWAYS teach about protected sex to ensure that we don't have people who don't have the resources to take care of the human inside of them.

Again, hitting President Trump on saying that men don't care about them after they've fucked the mother of their child -- saying that this is the law of the land for GOP land (or at least Trump land) isn't true. If you are the breadwinner of the family, you will have to provide for that child if the mother wants child support, that's how it always has gone, and this is how it will continue.

The problem with the left is that they feel that the Supreme Court is present to make their laws, and it ISN'T present for that reason. Roe V Wade was the court overextending itself -- and the court should have NEVER gone down that road. The Court is present to determine the constitutionality of things, and Abortion is NEVER mentioned in the constitution or even alluded to. This is why I feel that the Federal Government has no place in it and it SHOULD be left to the states.

And to the point about 'why even have a federal government then' WELL this country follows a FEDERALISM system -- one where powers are shared between the states, local, and the federal government. This is an integral part of our nation and should always be. This is laid out in the constitution to ensure that the people will ALWAYS have more direct control over their lives.

[BADecker]

Abortion in America is simply the killing of Americans with their right to grievance petition being denied them.