Mathematician: Is Our Universe a Simulation?

[tokeweed]

Mathematician: Is Our Universe a Simulation?

"Mathematician Edward Frenkel writes in the NYT that one fanciful possibility that explains why mathematics seems to permeate our universe is that we live in a computer simulation based on the laws of mathematics — not in what we commonly take to be the real world. According to this theory, some highly advanced computer programmer of the future has devised this simulation, and we are unknowingly part of it. Thus when we discover a mathematical truth, we are simply discovering aspects of the code that the programmer used. This may strike you as very unlikely writes Frenkel but physicists have been creating their own computer simulations of the forces of nature for years — on a tiny scale, the size of an atomic nucleus. They use a three-dimensional grid to model a little chunk of the universe; then they run the program to see what happens. 'Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom has argued that we are more likely to be in such a simulation than not,' writes Frenkel. 'If such simulations are possible in theory, he reasons, then eventually humans will create them — presumably many of them. If this is so, in time there will be many more simulated worlds than nonsimulated ones. Statistically speaking, therefore, we are more likely to be living in a simulated world than the real one.' The question now becomes is there any way to empirically test this hypothesis and the answer surprisingly is yes. In a recent paper, 'Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation,' the physicists Silas R. Beane, Zohreh Davoudi and Martin J. Savage outline a possible method for detecting that our world is actually a computer simulation (PDF). Savage and his colleagues assume that any future simulators would use some of the same techniques current scientists use to run simulations, with the same constraints. The future simulators, Savage indicated, would map their universe on a mathematical lattice or grid, consisting of points and lines. But computer simulations generate slight but distinctive anomalies — certain kinds of asymmetries and they suggest that a closer look at cosmic rays may reveal similar asymmetries. If so, this would indicate that we might — just might — ourselves be in someone else's computer simulation."

http://science.slashdot.org/story/14/02/16/197236/mathematician-is-our-universe-a-simulation

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[Mike Christ]

Junk philosophy.  The amount of power a computer would need to calculate every single human thought and action in a simulation, let alone the trajectories and properties of every object and atom in the universe, is incomprehensible.  The only hope this theory has is in nihilism and solipsism, neither of which and of whom are of any use to the rest of society, nor are their ponderings, such as this one.

Technology mimics reality, not the other way around.  The universe came first, mathematics built around it second to help explain the universe.  That's why everything fits; if it didn't, it wouldn't be math.  If the rules of the universe were any different, math would also be different, and they of the alternate universe, too, would still ask such silly questions as to how their own invention worked so perfectly when it was designed specifically for the universe given.

These are the same people who think the pyramids around the world are built by aliens.

[Kluge]

It's pretty easy to discount the cosmic ray bit. Unimaginable devastation would arise if the simulation were subject to uncontrolled, "random" errors. Entire solar systems could suddenly disappear because a cosmic ray affected the simulator.... or maybe error-correcting code simply erases our knowledge of their existence to compensate. What a clusterfuck it will be if the ECC fails. It'd be fun to see how we react to such an event.... clearly, whoever's running this experiment is terribly boring or they would've had been messing with us for a long time. Anyway - we have pretty solid knowledge on how to eliminate cosmic ray interference... civilizations so far advanced really shouldn't be having issues with it.

Otherwise, totally plausible, just like all theories on how we exist. It's kind of silly to write it off because it's non-beneficial. You may's well call the theory of universal heat death junk because it's non-beneficial to our will to survive, too.

[Mike Christ]

Otherwise, totally plausible, just like all theories on how we exist. It's kind of silly to write it off because it's non-beneficial. You may's well call the theory of universal heat death junk because it's non-beneficial to our will to survive, too.

That theory could be useful to us someday, if not already (first time I've ever heard of it frankly.)  The theory that we could exist within someone else's computer simulations we will never have control over and that the simulation could end any moment now once the owner of the simulation became bored is unprovable and as pointless as postulating the existence of a deity (these really aren't much different, if you can compare God to whoever can modify the simulation.)  There is nothing you can do with this theory except to cause someone to say "Hmmm, that's interesting," after which they continue doing things which matter, such as going for jogs, or enjoying time with friends.

There are two possibilities here: the simulation is real, in which case the only one benefiting is the owner of the simulation as they would otherwise have no reason to create a simulation at all, or the simulation is not real, in which case it doesn't matter.  This is why it's pointless for those existing within the simulation to ponder whether or not they're in a simulation: there is nothing to gain from that position, except a loss in will for falsely believing one's own life to be trivial.  There are no gold medals in life for "getting it right"; there's nothing to gain from being first to discovering life in this carnation is a simulation, unless one is very new at philosophy and have yet to discover any higher meanings in life, thereby falsely believing one's short-sighted and baseless theories to have any validity or worthiness of being published anywhere, which is why I pointed out it's junk.  We are faced with the conundrum of requiring proof of that which creates the simulation and, just as all theories of there being a higher order, we're left with a catch 22 where the only way to discover this is to ask the owner (God) to prove it, and they have a huge incentive not to if they wish to acquire accurate results, or to be outside of the simulation looking in, in which case people would still ask themselves, outside of the simulation, whether they were in a simulation, and if the people who owned that simulation were also in a simulation.

I don't write it off because it's non-beneficial--that is a quality.  I write it off because there is no condition to be false about this belief, and an impossible condition to be correct, thus leaving the theory in perpetual limbo.  Fortunately, science teaches us that we do not have to bother with the unprovable, and that it is the burden of he who puts forward to prove, not to be unproven.  People to this day still attempt to rationally and empirically prove the existence of God, and I say, good on them, but I worry they'll lay upon their death beds wondering if there was a better usage of their time.

[hilariousandco]

Junk philosophy.  The amount of power a computer would need to calculate every single human thought and action in a simulation, let alone the trajectories and properties of every object and atom in the universe, is incomprehensible. 

Maybe god has a really fast computer?

[MakeBelieve]

Junk philosophy.  The amount of power a computer would need to calculate every single human thought and action in a simulation, let alone the trajectories and properties of every object and atom in the universe, is incomprehensible.

Maybe god has a really fast computer?

I think we can rule out god on this topic kluge and mike please carry on the discussion it very interesting.

[hilariousandco]

Junk philosophy.  The amount of power a computer would need to calculate every single human thought and action in a simulation, let alone the trajectories and properties of every object and atom in the universe, is incomprehensible.

Maybe god has a really fast computer?

I think we can rule out god on this topic kluge and mike please carry on the discussion it very interesting.

I think we should discuss the God's Computer Hypothesis. We can't rule it out.

[SpaceJelly]

[MakeBelieve]

What is this? Why have you posted this does it add to the conversation?

[tokeweed]

Junk philosophy.  The amount of power a computer would need to calculate every single human thought and action in a simulation, let alone the trajectories and properties of every object and atom in the universe, is incomprehensible.

Maybe god has a really fast computer?

I think we can rule out god on this topic kluge and mike please carry on the discussion it very interesting.

yup. please continue the discussion please.

[hilariousandco]

What is this? Why have you posted this does it add to the conversation?

Maybe the game takes place in a mathematical or holographic universe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Ocean:_Till_the_End_of_Time

Although I can't really see any evidence of that. Maybe SpaceJelly can elaborate.

[SpaceJelly]

Well, once you get to a certain point in the game, near the end, you find out that you're not real and are in fact a simulation on a massive computer. Hence the relevance. This part of the wiki explains it a little bit:

Reaching the Time Gate, the party enters "4D space," a dimension higher than their own. According to the 4D beings, their universe is actually not real in relation to 4D space; rather, it is a computer simulation developed by Luther Lansfeld, the owner of the Sphere Company. Dubbed the "Eternal Sphere", it is similar to a real-world massively multiplayer online game for the inhabitants of 4D space.

Anyway, I guess I should have elaborated more, but wanted to see if anyone else would get the reference. It's explained a lot more in some detail in the game and it's really well worth a play as the story is up there with the FF series.

[Kluge]

Junk philosophy.  The amount of power a computer would need to calculate every single human thought and action in a simulation, let alone the trajectories and properties of every object and atom in the universe, is incomprehensible.

Maybe god has a really fast computer?

I think we can rule out god on this topic kluge and mike please carry on the discussion it very interesting.

yup. please continue the discussion please.

Mike effectively ended it. We're in agreement. Maybe we can come up with a little dispute, still.

I think it's sometimes fun to talk about these theories to blow off steam. I think, should this theory be reality, this would be a pretty strong argument against a nihilistic existence. After all, somebody (or something) decided we're worthwhile to study. There is at least a chance we'll be beneficial to this bitchin' future civilization with super-computers.

I'm a soft believer in inevitable universal heat death, so having some type of "ultimate use" beyond our perceived universe's existence gives humans a strong reason to carry on (outside absurdism).

[BTCWizard]

I really hope it runs on Linux, we don't want "A problem has been detected and The Universe has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer." 

[Holliday]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

[Holliday]

Would you do anything differently if the universe was a simulation and you knew it? Would you want to know?

[BTCWizard]

Would you do anything differently if the universe was a simulation and you knew it? Would you want to know?

I wouldn't do anything different, and yes I would want to know.

[Kluge]

Would you do anything differently if the universe was a simulation and you knew it? Would you want to know?

Being human, we'd just doubt the thing or person telling us. What is its motive? How do we know it even exists? It's probably just Satan trying to throw us off our Godly ways.

[Nathonas]

That's a pretty cool theory that actually does make a lot of sense to me. I'm not a mathematician but the amount of ORDER and LOGIC in our universe is just so obvious - it's hard to believe that it just randomly appeared out of total chaos. But in the end I don't think it really matters that much - even if we are inside a computer program, this is still real to us - we exist, we are real, and it's not all in our heads. If you really think about it, it doesn't matter if our world is "real" or not, simulated or not...as long as we decide to put meaning into our existence, that's all that matters.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Junk philosophy.  The amount of power a computer would need to calculate every single human thought and action in a simulation, let alone the trajectories and properties of every object and atom in the universe, is incomprehensible. 

Maybe god has a really fast computer?

Read this book three times.