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Author Topic: At what pricepoint is bitcoin dead?  (Read 25797 times)
Rassah
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October 27, 2011, 07:37:08 PM
 #181

Economists generally agree...

This made me LOL  Grin

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PatrickHarnett
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October 27, 2011, 07:59:17 PM
 #182

Economists generally agree...

This made me LOL  Grin

LOL +1 - I work in an "economics shop" although I am not an economist, and the practical evidence is economists don't agree on almost everything.  There are some areas where there is aggregation of opinions.
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October 27, 2011, 08:36:22 PM
 #183

Inflation is the loss of purchasing power per unit, period.  I know you are probably one of those "don't confuse me with the facts" people but 2 BTC bought a lot more two months ago, regardless of exchanging it for fiat.  That is called inflation.

You can't measure inflation over a period as short as 2 months and with a single metric.  What you experienced was volatility.

Inflation is a persistent and general rise in price of goods and services.  You can not conclusively point to inflation for a change in exchange rate of BTC in a 2 month window.  Compared to 12 months prior the purchasing power of BTC is much higher today.   So are we experiencing deflation? 
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October 27, 2011, 08:55:29 PM
 #184

Inflation is the loss of purchasing power per unit, period.  I know you are probably one of those "don't confuse me with the facts" people but 2 BTC bought a lot more two months ago, regardless of exchanging it for fiat.  That is called inflation.

You can't measure inflation over a period as short as 2 months and with a single metric.  What you experienced was volatility.

Inflation is a persistent and general rise in price of goods and services.  You can not conclusively point to inflation for a change in exchange rate of BTC in a 2 month window.  Compared to 12 months prior the purchasing power of BTC is much higher today.   So are we experiencing deflation? 

You can't fix stupid I guess.

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
mizike29
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October 28, 2011, 02:10:05 AM
 #185

OK NON COMMUNIST COUNTRIES, is that better?  We havent had issues in non communist areas in lifetimes and lifetimes.  There is nothing that has shown it would change to any extent at any rate that bitcoin would be the answer to the problems of your privacy.  We already know that bitcoins are not private.  They can be tracked and traced.  No more private then if you take some time and make purchases with a prepaid credit card.  Your looking way too deep into this and yes being way to paranoid.  Ok in other underprivileged countries where privacy might be more important, maybe bitcoin might offer something, but theres not too many places that you cant get a prepaid credit card for cash that would keep your privacy and order whatever you want. Even if you buy something with bitcoin you have to get it shipped somewhere, your apartment, house, or lets say you use a receiving company, that has your information from your license and info unless your faking that or using some shady place that doesnt require identification. Theres not any major items that you can buy with bitcoin either, if bitcoin is going to make it, it would have to be utilitzed by companies like newegg or amazon etc, so wouldnt much matter at that point, your going to be tracked by who you buy it from, and a prepaid card leads to no where.  Bitcoin can lead to your computer, or information from where your storing the bitcoins, or what service your using to buy the products, no more private then other options that already exist unless your in some communist country.

And ok, anything is possible, but yes I wasnt referring to just my lifetime, were talking 100s of years and some crazy changes that would force people to buy products in secret.  I just dont see it.  Not to mention were sitting around 2 bux a coin. 

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October 28, 2011, 12:26:50 PM
 #186

OK NON COMMUNIST COUNTRIES

If you were living in a free country, you would be raised to know these basic things, like what "communism" means. Smiley Just joking...

We havent had issues in non communist areas in lifetimes and lifetimes.  There is nothing that has shown it would change to any extent at any rate that bitcoin would be the answer to the problems of your privacy. 

So which is it? We don't need privacy or Bitcoin doesn't provide it? You are arguing for both I suppose.

First, if you know you don't need privacy, then you aren't doing anything interesting with your life. Sorry.

Second, you need to do some research and imagination about what kind of privacy you can get with Bitcoin.
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October 28, 2011, 03:48:15 PM
 #187

Inflation is the loss of purchasing power per unit, period.  I know you are probably one of those "don't confuse me with the facts" people but 2 BTC bought a lot more two months ago, regardless of exchanging it for fiat.  That is called inflation.

You can't measure inflation over a period as short as 2 months and with a single metric.  What you experienced was volatility.

Inflation is a persistent and general rise in price of goods and services.  You can not conclusively point to inflation for a change in exchange rate of BTC in a 2 month window.  Compared to 12 months prior the purchasing power of BTC is much higher today.   So are we experiencing deflation? 

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Inflation IS printing money. Printing money IS inflation. If you don't print money, the average price of everything will not rise in the long term (because when money supply is fixed, and number of goods is increasing, light deflation is a natural thing) , unless there are some special circumstances.

This is why gold is ALWAYS rising in the long term - because the supply is rising very slowly, while number of goods which you can buy for it rises much faster (as we are producing more and more faster and faster).

DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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October 28, 2011, 03:58:31 PM
 #188

Your wrong.  Inflaiton is a a persistent and general rise in prices.  Period. 
Printing money is inflationary (as in potential to cause inflaiton).

It certainly is possible to have inflation without printing money (increasing money supply).
It is also possible to have no inflation or even deflation despite printing money (increasing money supply).

Inflation is the result of a monetary base growing FASTER than underlying economy.
Deflation is the result of the monetary base growing SLOWER than the underlying economy.

If the underlying productive output grows 5% but the effective money supply grows 10% then per unit of production there is 4.76% more dollars per available goods/services and that is INFLATIONARY.

If on the otherhand the productive output grows 10% but the effective money supply grows 5% then per unit of production there is 4.54% less dollars per available goods/services and that is DEFLATIONARY.

Of course none of this changes the fact that you can't measure inflation by looking at a single price and a two month time period.  Speculaiton can drive prices up or down and have nothing to do with inflation.  Supply & Demand can drive individual prices up or down and have nothing to do with inflation.

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October 28, 2011, 04:03:46 PM
 #189

Inflation is the result of a monetary base growing FASTER than underlying economy.
Deflation is the result of the monetary base growing SLOWER than the underlying economy.

This is exactly what I said, using different words.

I also said that in certain special circumstances (as when economy is shrinking while money supply is stable), there a natural inflation can occur.

But AFAIK from history, i don't remember it ever happening in the last 100-200 years, and this is why i called it "special circumstances".

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October 28, 2011, 05:02:06 PM
 #190

Your wrong.  Inflaiton is a a persistent and general rise in prices.  Period.  
Printing money is inflationary (as in potential to cause inflaiton).

It certainly is possible to have inflation without printing money (increasing money supply).
It is also possible to have no inflation or even deflation despite printing money (increasing money supply).

DeathAndTaxes - it is you who is wrong =)  Inflation, properly defined, means an increase in the money supply. Deflation means a decrease in the money supply. Printing money is not "inflationary"... it is "inflation."

The fact that Paul Krugman et al have destroyed the proper meaning of the term, and convinced the world that prices rise on their own, and that printing money only has a "chance" of increasing inflation is an atrocious myth.

When a dollar is printed, inflation increased by a dollar. Prices may rise or fall based on many variables, and prices can even fall during an inflationary environment, but always when money is printed inflation has been caused.

This is why it's funny/sad on the news shows when they say something like, "well, the Fed has created $500b, but will that lead to inflation?"  And then they argue about it. The creation of $500b WAS THE INFLATION. They are confusing CPI with inflation. In the US, inflation has already occured... and the CPI will likely show the effects of this inflation in the coming years.

Rassah
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October 28, 2011, 05:30:14 PM
 #191

Why the hell does it matter what the definition of inflation is? Just so that one person can pidgeonhole Bitcoin into it and say they are right? I don't think Bitcoin cares whether it's inflating or just dropping in value.

DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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October 28, 2011, 05:35:40 PM
 #192

DeathAndTaxes - it is you who is wrong =)  Inflation, properly defined, means an increase in the money supply. Deflation means a decrease in the money supply. Printing money is not "inflationary"... it is "inflation."

Properly defined by who?  Show me an economics textbook or paper by respected economist (your choice) who agrees with you.  I don't care about the politics of inflation vs inflationary.
bitcoinminer
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October 28, 2011, 06:42:34 PM
 #193

OK, we'll put it this way then...

Bitcoin is hereby decreed to be stable and/or deflationary, meaning it is increasing in value.  Goods and services are simply becoming 10 times more expensive relative to bitcoin, and all other forms of money are becoming 9.98 times more valuable at the same time.

Your Bitcoin world is safe, fiat currency is still inflating at 2%, and you can go back to sleep Smiley

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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October 28, 2011, 06:46:19 PM
 #194

OK, we'll put it this way then...

Bitcoin is hereby decreed to be stable and/or deflationary, meaning it is increasing in value.  Goods and services are simply becoming 10 times more expensive relative to bitcoin, and all other forms of money are becoming 9.98 times more valuable at the same time.

Your Bitcoin world is safe, fiat currency is still inflating at 2%, and you can go back to sleep Smiley

Nobody claimed that other than you.
So you are two for two when it comes to false statements.
mizike29
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October 28, 2011, 07:20:04 PM
 #195

I know the privacy you get with bitcoin and its just as much as a prepaid credit card that you put cash on.  Using bitcoin you will still have a trail, smaller then normal methods but still a trail.  Yes I am pointing out both, that bitcoin doesnt provide more privacy then other available methods and that you do not need that level of privacy, almost anyone can be found or information found on anyone by the time you were 16 or so if born in the 70s or 80s.  Buying things online is what were talking about here, so no I dont think you need to hide the fact your buying a laptop, or a camera, or a inflatable women whatever.  And if you do, bitcoin has a very hard time paying for those items anyways, and the privacy you could get can also be had with out bitcoin.  And why would not needing privacy mean your not doing anything interesting with your life, thats just stupid.  I can do many many things and not worry about if the government or big eye in the sky know about it, and the more interesting things I have done, I know the government either doesnt care or wouldnt know about them and it wasnt by using bitcoin.

I love bitcoin for sure.  Its just not privacy thats going to save bitcoin at this point.

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October 28, 2011, 08:54:01 PM
 #196

...you do not need that level of privacy...

Most people do not need that level of privacy most of the time.  Many people would like more privacy for a lot of silly things (like the inflatable woman).  There are also a lot of illegal activities for which it makes sense to seek privacy.

To most people I would suggest that the only attraction of Bitcoin is the potetntially lower transaction fees.  When you consider only those that already use Bitcoin I expect you'll find a larger proportion which highly value freedom and/or privacy.  If all of the things you want to do are either legal or carry a low probability of a mild penalty then you are lucky indeed, particularly if, by some miracle, you were born into the country with these ideal laws!
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October 28, 2011, 09:43:57 PM
 #197

You are beating a dead horse.

Privacy, low fees even decentralization and freedom from intervention are just arguments to people. They are not reasons.
A reason for some people is that you can buy drugs without leaving the house, for others because it is less hassle than plain old forex and as fun.
There can be many more reasons to use it but guess what? Silk Road and MtGox emerged both independently from the Project.

It is up to you, the supporters *if you call yourself one

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
mizike29
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October 28, 2011, 10:50:35 PM
 #198

Yeah I came into bitcoin early, around 1 dollar a coin, in the beginning way before the spike to 30 bux and it was because I thought it was a cool, unique concept that could take off.  After being around and seeing the instability and scamming and how complex it is to use, and mine, with me being very computer literate, I lost some faith that normal people would pick it up enough to make it work. I hope it does turn around, its still as cool as it was a year ago.  I will support it. 

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October 29, 2011, 09:37:26 PM
 #199

  • 1.  when someone breaks the core functionality
  • 2. when the exchange is 0

1jimbitm6hAKTjKX4qurCNQubbnk2YsFw
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