What exactly is the point of everyone's hatred of ASIC's?

[goodxp]

ASIC => centralization => big hit on head => ?!

Miners mine as long as it making money. And the community is full of their voice - not to change before earning enough. Security/efficiency call is all base on POW, there is always other ways to do it.

Look at the big picture, transaction fee will be kept lowering by competition of upcoming digital coins, and mining cost determines transaction fee ultimately. In the end, anybody can mine with redundant power of the devices he/she owns to barely make up the wasted capacity. Do not worry there is not enough idle power. I am now running some scientific computation programs for free, using 4 CPU cores out of my 8, and there are thousands of other people with me. 1000 stable online nodes could be enough to replace VISA.

I am not someone you can nail a "Missed Loser" mark on my head, or someone promoting something else. I got bitcoins and love it, and wish the community still have the leadership to move on, no matter what have achieved and what to cost for a bright future. Do the right thing, or be left in the cold - community's choice.

[Biomech]

yeah i like that stuf yo, but i don`t have enough background in tose fields to really get into it. but its fascinating nonetheless

if you haven't read it: Engines of Creation

And is this what you were referring to?

[ljudotina]

Ok so what is so bad about the fact that Bitcoin now uses ASIC's that has everyone using Scrypt or other ASIC protected code?  Is it because they don't want to have to invest the cash for Bitcoin, or is there another reason that seriously disrupts the effectiveness of Bitcoin.  I understand they say it centralizes Bitcoin, but as the price rises the whales will get out earlier because they got in earlier so centralization doesn't seem to be a problem to me.  What is it?  Why use Scrypt?

ASIC's are a very important step towards mining centralization. That's it.

asics are a an important step to making cheap efficient hardware available for everyone. ultimatly fighting centralisation.

And as there would not be centralization if there was no ASIC.
So what your sain is that we have ASIC to fight centralization which was created by ASIC....wouldnt it be easyer not to have ASIC in first place?

Imagine how much more miners would BTC have than it has now. How much harder would it be to centralize it and shut it down if there was no ASIC around...
More miners, more BTC users, more users wider adoption, wider adoption better BTC price....ASICs just ruined initial idea of BTC.

if the network still ran on cpu, a single asic machine develloped by an evil gouverment in secrety would kill btc overnight. asics are not special and defenatly not invented for btc. bitcoin adpted the concept. and if we as a comunity didn`t do it, it would be very easy for the ones who are evil to do just that.

to protect the network we have to make sure it is kept to the highest standard available.

Or maybe, just maybe, devs could change away from SHA256 and protect BTC from ANY sort of ASIC. They could have done it, but they didint as someone is making huge amount of btc/$$$ out of ASIC. Only 1 single change like that would turn away anyone from investing into ASIC hardware (private or goverment) as ASIC is useless piece of hardware once you change away from SHA.
BTC can be protected on software level much more effective and easyer than on hardware level.
If potentional invester into ASIC knew that devs will switch code as soon as there is problem, they would not even try to create it as it would be money thrown away.

[nlsupernova]

yeah i like that stuf yo, but i don`t have enough background in tose fields to really get into it. but its fascinating nonetheless

if you haven't read it: Engines of Creation

And is this what you were referring to?

ok, i`ll give that one a read. seems very interesting..

and yes thats what i was talking about. in dutch it is called grafeen. i think it has big potential, especially in aplications nobody has thought of yet, at the moment they are just scratching the surface of its posiblitys i think.. if they manage to eventually find a way to produce it on a industrial scale it could change so many things.

[nlsupernova]

Ok so what is so bad about the fact that Bitcoin now uses ASIC's that has everyone using Scrypt or other ASIC protected code?  Is it because they don't want to have to invest the cash for Bitcoin, or is there another reason that seriously disrupts the effectiveness of Bitcoin.  I understand they say it centralizes Bitcoin, but as the price rises the whales will get out earlier because they got in earlier so centralization doesn't seem to be a problem to me.  What is it?  Why use Scrypt?

ASIC's are a very important step towards mining centralization. That's it.

asics are a an important step to making cheap efficient hardware available for everyone. ultimatly fighting centralisation.

And as there would not be centralization if there was no ASIC.
So what your sain is that we have ASIC to fight centralization which was created by ASIC....wouldnt it be easyer not to have ASIC in first place?

Imagine how much more miners would BTC have than it has now. How much harder would it be to centralize it and shut it down if there was no ASIC around...
More miners, more BTC users, more users wider adoption, wider adoption better BTC price....ASICs just ruined initial idea of BTC.

if the network still ran on cpu, a single asic machine develloped by an evil gouverment in secrety would kill btc overnight. asics are not special and defenatly not invented for btc. bitcoin adpted the concept. and if we as a comunity didn`t do it, it would be very easy for the ones who are evil to do just that.

to protect the network we have to make sure it is kept to the highest standard available.

Or maybe, just maybe, devs could change away from SHA256 and protect BTC from ANY sort of ASIC. They could have done it, but they didint as someone is making huge amount of btc/$$$ out of ASIC. Only 1 single change like that would turn away anyone from investing into ASIC hardware (private or goverment) as ASIC is useless piece of hardware once you change away from SHA.
BTC can be protected on software level much more effective and easyer than on hardware level.
If potentional invester into ASIC knew that devs will switch code as soon as there is problem, they would not even try to create it as it would be money thrown away.

you cant make it it totaly asic proof. anything thats calculation based can be turned into an asic.. you can only make it more complicated so asics are to expensive for commercial use and it makes no sence for a company to make them...
but an gouverment that wants to kill bitcoin isn`t concerned with roi . theyll just spend a billion dollars on developing an asic machine, and kill the the network in one single swoop because the entire network is just 1 terrahash big if only cpus are running it...

if you want to kill the network now, youre gonna need a lot more money to do so because the network is so much bigger and there are no other options available that are masivly more powerfull then asics.

[Lauda]

I don't get those people who complain that ASICs won't ROI, and then they go ahead and build giant GPU farms that won't profit unless they can count on reselling their used hardware on eBay for >75% cost after 1 year.

GPU farms do profit if done right, but the majority of people who started mining have low knowledge and shouldn't have invested in this.

[ljudotina]

Ok so what is so bad about the fact that Bitcoin now uses ASIC's that has everyone using Scrypt or other ASIC protected code?  Is it because they don't want to have to invest the cash for Bitcoin, or is there another reason that seriously disrupts the effectiveness of Bitcoin.  I understand they say it centralizes Bitcoin, but as the price rises the whales will get out earlier because they got in earlier so centralization doesn't seem to be a problem to me.  What is it?  Why use Scrypt?

ASIC's are a very important step towards mining centralization. That's it.

asics are a an important step to making cheap efficient hardware available for everyone. ultimatly fighting centralisation.

And as there would not be centralization if there was no ASIC.
So what your sain is that we have ASIC to fight centralization which was created by ASIC....wouldnt it be easyer not to have ASIC in first place?

Imagine how much more miners would BTC have than it has now. How much harder would it be to centralize it and shut it down if there was no ASIC around...
More miners, more BTC users, more users wider adoption, wider adoption better BTC price....ASICs just ruined initial idea of BTC.

if the network still ran on cpu, a single asic machine develloped by an evil gouverment in secrety would kill btc overnight. asics are not special and defenatly not invented for btc. bitcoin adpted the concept. and if we as a comunity didn`t do it, it would be very easy for the ones who are evil to do just that.

to protect the network we have to make sure it is kept to the highest standard available.

Or maybe, just maybe, devs could change away from SHA256 and protect BTC from ANY sort of ASIC. They could have done it, but they didint as someone is making huge amount of btc/$$$ out of ASIC. Only 1 single change like that would turn away anyone from investing into ASIC hardware (private or goverment) as ASIC is useless piece of hardware once you change away from SHA.
BTC can be protected on software level much more effective and easyer than on hardware level.
If potentional invester into ASIC knew that devs will switch code as soon as there is problem, they would not even try to create it as it would be money thrown away.

you cant make it it totaly asic proof. anything thats calculation based can be turned into an asic.. you can only make it more complicated so asics are to expensive for commercial use and it makes no sence for a company to make them...
but an gouverment that wants to kill bitcoin isn`t concerned with roi . theyll just spend a billion dollars on developing an asic machine, and kill the the network in one single swoop because the entire network is just 1 terrahash big if only cpus are running it...

if you want to kill the network now, youre gonna need a lot more money to do so because the network is so much bigger and there are no other options available that are masivly more powerfull then asics.

You dont have to build ASIC proof coin (tho it can be 51% proof like some are), all you have to do is change formula that's calculated ONCE and that will be enough to scare away anyone from even attempting to create ASIC as they would know that as soon as they fire it up, devs would change scrypt again and they would be sitting on worthless piece of hardware. It's something like nuclear bomb. You wont use it as you know they will use it too. And for ASIC, changing formula is nuclear bomb...total annahilation.

You can't really kill BTC. All devs need to do is change formula and off it goes again. As simple as that.
Who, in his right state of mind would go and create ASIC if they knew that they would have only short effect on network?

BTC strength is not in it's hardware, it's in it's software, and it's software that can and should protect it.

And i have one question for you. Who are ppl that can make decision to "change or not to change" BTC code? Are they maybe somehow connected to ASIC manufacturers? Now....tell me, how decentralized BTC really is?

[ljudotina]

I don't get those people who complain that ASICs won't ROI, and then they go ahead and build giant GPU farms that won't profit unless they can count on reselling their used hardware on eBay for >75% cost after 1 year.

You have absolutely no idea how GPU farming is profitable dont you? Not only it pays off in few months it continues to make good coin for more then a year and even after that you have good GPU and computer cards to use or to sell. With ASIC you have piece of hardware you can throw away.

[induktor]

I don't get those people who complain that ASICs won't ROI, and then they go ahead and build giant GPU farms that won't profit unless they can count on reselling their used hardware on eBay for >75% cost after 1 year.

You have absolutely no idea how GPU farming is profitable dont you? Not only it pays off in few months it continues to make good coin for more then a year and even after that you have good GPU and computer cards to use or to sell. With ASIC you have piece of hardware you can throw away.

+1

[superresistant]

Mining is absurd and obsolete.

The pyramid-scheme keeps going on because some people benefit from it.

[nlsupernova]

Ok so what is so bad about the fact that Bitcoin now uses ASIC's that has everyone using Scrypt or other ASIC protected code?  Is it because they don't want to have to invest the cash for Bitcoin, or is there another reason that seriously disrupts the effectiveness of Bitcoin.  I understand they say it centralizes Bitcoin, but as the price rises the whales will get out earlier because they got in earlier so centralization doesn't seem to be a problem to me.  What is it?  Why use Scrypt?

ASIC's are a very important step towards mining centralization. That's it.

asics are a an important step to making cheap efficient hardware available for everyone. ultimatly fighting centralisation.

And as there would not be centralization if there was no ASIC.
So what your sain is that we have ASIC to fight centralization which was created by ASIC....wouldnt it be easyer not to have ASIC in first place?

Imagine how much more miners would BTC have than it has now. How much harder would it be to centralize it and shut it down if there was no ASIC around...
More miners, more BTC users, more users wider adoption, wider adoption better BTC price....ASICs just ruined initial idea of BTC.

if the network still ran on cpu, a single asic machine develloped by an evil gouverment in secrety would kill btc overnight. asics are not special and defenatly not invented for btc. bitcoin adpted the concept. and if we as a comunity didn`t do it, it would be very easy for the ones who are evil to do just that.

to protect the network we have to make sure it is kept to the highest standard available.

Or maybe, just maybe, devs could change away from SHA256 and protect BTC from ANY sort of ASIC. They could have done it, but they didint as someone is making huge amount of btc/$$$ out of ASIC. Only 1 single change like that would turn away anyone from investing into ASIC hardware (private or goverment) as ASIC is useless piece of hardware once you change away from SHA.
BTC can be protected on software level much more effective and easyer than on hardware level.
If potentional invester into ASIC knew that devs will switch code as soon as there is problem, they would not even try to create it as it would be money thrown away.

you cant make it it totaly asic proof. anything thats calculation based can be turned into an asic.. you can only make it more complicated so asics are to expensive for commercial use and it makes no sence for a company to make them...
but an gouverment that wants to kill bitcoin isn`t concerned with roi . theyll just spend a billion dollars on developing an asic machine, and kill the the network in one single swoop because the entire network is just 1 terrahash big if only cpus are running it...

if you want to kill the network now, youre gonna need a lot more money to do so because the network is so much bigger and there are no other options available that are masivly more powerfull then asics.

You dont have to build ASIC proof coin (tho it can be 51% proof like some are), all you have to do is change formula that's calculated ONCE and that will be enough to scare away anyone from even attempting to create ASIC as they would know that as soon as they fire it up, devs would change scrypt again and they would be sitting on worthless piece of hardware. It's something like nuclear bomb. You wont use it as you know they will use it too. And for ASIC, changing formula is nuclear bomb...total annahilation.

You can't really kill BTC. All devs need to do is change formula and off it goes again. As simple as that.
Who, in his right state of mind would go and create ASIC if they knew that they would have only short effect on network?

BTC strength is not in it's hardware, it's in it's software, and it's software that can and should protect it.

And i have one question for you. Who are ppl that can make decision to "change or not to change" BTC code? Are they maybe somehow connected to ASIC manufacturers? Now....tell me, how decentralized BTC really is?

if btc starts going this route bitcoin is never gonna last. why would anyone prefer a system like that over fiat. the security risks involved in running the network like that are masive.

[ljudotina]

if btc starts going this route bitcoin is never gonna last. why would anyone prefer a system like that over fiat. the security risks involved in running the network like that are masive.

There would be no security risk as threat of ASIC attack would be null and changes in BTC code are done anyway, so why not to use them to make more secure coin...

[mgio]

Ignorance.

No, it's because it took mining out of the reach of the small miner because of the initial investment.

I have been mining with ASICS since the first came online and were available. The cost was not prohibitive for me, but for a lot of people it still is.

I can understand the the bad feelings.


~BCX~

It's not this. BFL Jalapenos sold for just $150 when they were announced. And the ASIC USB miners from ASICMiner and others were always very cheap and definitely in the range of the small miner.

[smooth]

I don't get those people who complain that ASICs won't ROI, and then they go ahead and build giant GPU farms that won't profit unless they can count on reselling their used hardware on eBay for >75% cost after 1 year.

You have absolutely no idea how GPU farming is profitable dont you? Not only it pays off in few months it continues to make good coin for more then a year and even after that you have good GPU and computer cards to use or to sell. With ASIC you have piece of hardware you can throw away.

That has certainly been the case in the past. I mined on the same GPUs for almost 3 years, and they're still worth something.

Past performance is no guarantee though. It is true they will generally have better resale value than ASICs.

[mgio]

My personal opinion is that BTC was created to fight cintralization and to be available to everyone. ASIC's go against both of those things.

This isn't true at all. There are roughly a dozen ASIC manufacturers. You can order from any of them. Some of them ship right away, some are preorders. There are plenty of options for the casual bitcoin miner. It in no way centralized bitcoin mining. If bitcoin mining has become more centralized it is only because bitcoin has become more popular and its price has skyrocketed in the past year making it more attractive to corporations and larger investors. It is in no way the fault of ASICs.

[mgio]

A point was made earlier in the thread that I wish to dispute. Somewhat.

I don't recall which of you said it, but what was said was that ASIC chips are relatively cheap to produce and sold at an absolute premium. So far, so good. But then the point was made that anyone developing ASICs would be insane to not follow that paradigm.

This is what I would dispute. The opportunity exists right now for someone who has the resources to follow a rather different model, and it's not only not insane, it would generate them more business than they could handle AND more goodwill than any other manufacturer.

That model is this:

Make a small batch that's expensive enough to cover NRE and a rather large chip run. Use the profits from that batch to build a huge amount of machines, and sell them just over cost. The profits per machine would be minimal, but selling IN HAND at low cost would gather up so freakin' many sales that said manufacturer would probably have to expand their operation to keep up with demand.

Now if you believe that Bitcoin is a passing fancy, this model will not appeal. If you're only in it for the short run, it won't appeal. If you want to be top dog when the dust settles, it will have a great deal of appeal.

This is the way I would do it. I am crazy, but I'm not insane. I understand the consequences and morals of my actions. (reference M'Naughton, the legal standard for insanity at common law). The only thing stopping me is lack of funds, as with money I could hire the experts.

Personally, I love ASICs. They're making the network so strong that mainstream adoption of bitcoin is within reach, as even the true paranoid can do the calculations and figure out that the network can't be easily broken. Would it have gotten there without the ASIC revolution? Probably, but it wouldn't be there now.

This same "arms race" happened with PC's. In the long run it was a good thing, as you can now go to Walmart, plop down 400 dollars, and have what was defined as a supercomputer when I was a pup.

Your model is already being done. No ASIC manufacturer can keep up with demand presently. That is why few of them are dropping their prices. What sets the price on an ASIC is how much it can be expected to earn, not how much it cost to make. Prices will drop as difficulty continues to rise and the least efficient ASICs will become obsolete. The most efficient ones will sell for not much more than they cost to make and difficulty will stabilitze so that the average miner with cheap electricity can just barely expect to earn a profit over what they pay for the ASIC.

[CryptoPanda]

Ignorance.

No, it's because it took mining out of the reach of the small miner because of the initial investment.

I have been mining with ASICS since the first came online and were available. The cost was not prohibitive for me, but for a lot of people it still is.

I can understand the the bad feelings.

A top of the line GPU mining rig will cost an amount similar to an ASIC device. The ASIC is going to be way more efficient at mining.

CPU miners bitched about GPU miners the same way GPU miners bitched about ASIC miners.

Sorry, it's ignorance.

completely agree!

[brush242]

A top of the line GPU mining rig will cost an amount similar to an ASIC device. The ASIC is going to be way more efficient at mining.

CPU miners bitched about GPU miners the same way GPU miners bitched about ASIC miners.

Sorry, it's ignorance.

Exactly. This is how technology progresses.

When a Super Quantum Double-Secret Probation miner makes the xTB miners worthless, some of xTB people will crab as well.

[igorr]

ASIC is killed bitcoin !

[brush242]

So much energy being wasted on mining, save the planet maaaaaaannn. But seriously, there is so much energy/power being used in mining. It's an obscene amount.

No, it's a demonstration of the most simple rule of economics. People respond to incentives.

If you could come up with a way for miners to get paid a little bit more if their rig cleaned x liters of air per bitcoin mined (not counting the dust that accumulates on the damn things, heh) people would jump on that too.