Bitcoin and Kiva

[memvola]

You want to push bitcoin into mainstream so much that decided to lie about the truth. Don't do this. bitcoin have its own destiny and killer applications, no liar and quibble needed to make people feel the false confident.

I think you misunderstood. I'm talking about the lender here, not the borrower. I, as a lender, would (and should) absorb the exchange rate risk. That's all we've been talking about. Please re-read the thread.

P.S. I only have superficial knowledge about kiva, but I've lived in a developing country for 30 years, so I think I can guess what the problems might be from the perspective of the borrower.

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[netrin]

I wasn't previously aware of Kiva, though I think micro-loans are a wonderful concept. I would definitely offer bitcoin credit and would be willing to cover the transaction/exchange spread.

[PatrickHarnett]

Eh, bump. This is a big deal guys. If Bitcoin is used in micro-lending like Kiva, it will have a huge impact on Bitcoin and small economies as a whole.

don't expect that. The bitcoin will have to be exchanged to their local currency, and when they pay it back, they are suffering the exchange rate risks. The bitcoin can only be used as a payment tool in kiva case, which is not so meaningful for the kiva.

Atlas, once you ask donation for Advertise on the WSJ, where did that funds go?

exchange risks = minor.

I go from my local currency to USD and then they go across the world.  I've donated to their organisation and the loans (from my end) are interest free.  It's a step up from gifting money (or a goat) and I get to chose where across the globe I can make a small (but very localised) difference.

At the receiving end, it is a simple matter to say "we need USD25 per loan share, so at current rates = XX BTC"  not different to saying $25 = XXX JPY or XXX GBP or XXX XYZ currency.

[mrchilly]

Howdy again all.

I've been reminded again to tell everyone that obviously any such integration would be on a very long timeline, as I'm sure all you guys are aware, and to keep any expectations realistic. Currently, Kiva does not support or accept Bitcoins, and there is no clear indication in the future that it will.

Now, that out of the way, today on our innovation iteration idea board I have put up a "Bitcoin Proof-of-Concept". At Kiva we get two week innovation iterations to work on whatever want that we think will benefit the organization. These happen ever 14 weeks. Posting the idea up gives a chance for people to "buy-in" to it by contributing work points towards the idea. If the idea gets enough points, it gets funded, meaning people will go work on the idea, get it done, and then come back to some approvers to see what they think about implementing it.

This particular idea I have thrown up would just be for internal use among Kiva, and if it went well, then I could request to see whether or not it would be allowed to shown public.

The important thing here is to work in very small steps (agile development if you will), to see if we can push Bitcoin from the engineers up.

I love the discussion and want to contribute more to it soon, but have to get back to work!

Finally, again, I am just an engineer at Kiva, there are several other like me, that like you, wish to get more involved in Bitcoin, we have some free will to do exactly that, however everything requires approval from lots of people, as well as lots of time. However, we are much more likely to work on something when there are people out there who want. It's obvious from the talk here, that something like this is wanted.

-mrchilly

[nmat]

I highly recommend that you look at the non-profit pay option already setup at bit-pay, it should make implementation drastically easier and very affordable and even better, while people are paying in BTC, Kiva will be receiving USD from how I understand it.  I sent them a message a couple weeks back about this and would love to see it implemented in some form :-D

Keep up the great work!

Exactly. This would be just like adding another payment method for USD (like adding Paypal). Kiva does not need to know anything about bitcoins, but they would "benefit" from extra donors from the bitcoin economy.

[mrchilly]

Good points made regarding implementation, and they are appreciated. This little "mini-step" got funded by one of our engineers (I personally got roped into upgrading Redmine, boo), so we'll report back here with what happens. We are timeboxed to two weeks, so you'll either know if something happened or not by the end of the two weeks. Again, this is just a small proof-of-concept step to see if we can subtly get people here to accept a role for Bitcoin internally, then push for something more external, and if that is successful, we can move on to more ambitious plans! If not, then at the very least, you'll get a case study of what the barriers were to success.

Several of you have contacted me, and I will get back to you, the suggestions for help are very much appreciated. I look forward to following your suggestions and/or soliciting your help when the time comes.

(<begin cover ass>)And again, the reason I chose to start with this, is it seems a very simple way to get Bitcoin's foot in the door, after which it can move forward further if successful with this small step, and of course just cause we're working on it doesn't mean that it will necessarily happen, and of course, I am only speaking for myself and some engineers at Kiva, but not for Kiva itself (</end cover ass>).

[imsaguy]

(<begin cover ass>)... (</end cover ass>).

LOL.

[Gabi]

Wow, that's interesting!

[mrchilly]

So, a long time in coming here is what happened with our (some engineers at Kiva) project to attempt to integrate Bitcoin.

Basically, as we talked to many people in the organization, it became clear we wouldn't have widespread support to start, so we thought we'd just go ahead and build something and ask forgiveness later. However, we did want to at least do some good due diligence on how to proceed. Thus, we started by talking to many people about their experiences with Bitcoin. We talked to some fellow non-profits, and the lawyer from one particular organization gave us some strong reasons to not move forward. We then talked some with our lawyer, who cautioned against doing anything that could distract from Kiva's core mission by bringing about controversy.

So, we shelved the project for now, out of respect for our colleagues wishes. We'd still like to proceed, but we would have to find a way to do so while knowing that everything we do will meet our mission and not place us in a position of legal questionability.

So, from my perspective, what that means is that I'm going to wait (the other engineer who was working on Bitcoin with me here just left Kiva) until there is some solid example of another non-profit to point to, as well as some more legal frameworks/precedent set with Bitcoin usage, so that I can then point our lawyer to it and ask him if we can proceed.

I appreciate everyone's advice here on the forum. I believe in Bitcoin as a viable method for transactions along with most people here, but like you guys I'm stuck waiting for someone to take the lead. I was hoping we could take some lead, but it's simply *perceived* as being too risky. I have confidence though that with all the great people working on Bitcoin that there will eventually be a path forward.

Again, sorry for the delay in response, and thanks everyone for your advice and support.

Cheers,

mrchilly

[imsaguy]

So, a long time in coming here is what happened with our (some engineers at Kiva) project to attempt to integrate Bitcoin.

Basically, as we talked to many people in the organization, it became clear we wouldn't have widespread support to start, so we thought we'd just go ahead and build something and ask forgiveness later. However, we did want to at least do some good due diligence on how to proceed. Thus, we started by talking to many people about their experiences with Bitcoin. We talked to some fellow non-profits, and the lawyer from one particular organization gave us some strong reasons to not move forward. We then talked some with our lawyer, who cautioned against doing anything that could distract from Kiva's core mission by bringing about controversy.

So, we shelved the project for now, out of respect for our colleagues wishes. We'd still like to proceed, but we would have to find a way to do so while knowing that everything we do will meet our mission and not place us in a position of legal questionability.

So, from my perspective, what that means is that I'm going to wait (the other engineer who was working on Bitcoin with me here just left Kiva) until there is some solid example of another non-profit to point to, as well as some more legal frameworks/precedent set with Bitcoin usage, so that I can then point our lawyer to it and ask him if we can proceed.

I appreciate everyone's advice here on the forum. I believe in Bitcoin as a viable method for transactions along with most people here, but like you guys I'm stuck waiting for someone to take the lead. I was hoping we could take some lead, but it's simply *perceived* as being too risky. I have confidence though that with all the great people working on Bitcoin that there will eventually be a path forward.

Again, sorry for the delay in response, and thanks everyone for your advice and support.

Cheers,

mrchilly

Could you list the things the lawyers had issues with?  In general terms, just so that maybe they could be addressed by the developers/community to help remove roadblocks.

[Tril]

Dear Kiva,

Thanks for the update.  I would go ahead and start a centralized clearinghouse to loan money to individuals in third-world countries for BTC, except there's absolutely no need for any such thing.  I can and do loan money to individuals in third-world countries directly in bitcoin (anyone anywhere needing capital, please post over here).  Thanks for thinking of us, but we don't need you.  I don't need to pay credit card companies to track me.

[old_engineer]

Dear Kiva,

Thanks for the update.  I would go ahead and start a centralized clearinghouse to loan money to individuals in third-world countries for BTC, except there's absolutely no need for any such thing.  I can and do loan money to individuals in third-world countries directly in bitcoin (anyone anywhere needing capital, please post over here).  Thanks for thinking of us, but we don't need you.  I don't need to pay credit card companies to track me.

You could make the same point that after there's a single bank in town, no more banks are needed.  Though technically true, it misses the point: more players in the micro-loan game is good for consumers (both lenders and lendees).  Kiva accepting donations or micro-loan payments with bitcoin would be a welcome addition to the nascent bitcoin financial services industry.

Thanks for the update, mrchilly, and thanks for exploring using bitcoin.

[tripppn]

Did Kiva ever decide to accept bitcoin.  Could be great for both communities

[mikespax]

Why doesn't Kiva do an ICO?! Wouldn't that be a great way to raise capital for lending?