The Liberal "Grown-up" Mentality

[Anonymous]

In every argument, somebody comes in and claims:

"Oh, Immanuel, once you grow up and do actual work you'll begin to think like me and support government programs and the status quo."

I always continue to see this fetish with terms "grown-up" and "adult". It seems it's what these people have lived for all their lives; the provisioning that comes from their parents and teachers inevitably to the eventual turning point where you're a "grown-up". They lived for the day they began paying an overpriced mortage, paying their taxes and working a 9-to-5 in addition to be being admired by everyone by being like them: being the typical conforming grown-up.

I can't help but feel that if you challenged these individuals in their maturity and their label as an adult they would become a tad bit uncomfortable. For it's what they live for--to be ingrained in this organism they perceive, this seemingly living collective they consider society. Much like their father and mother who raised them to this ideal figure of an "adult", it's all they have lived for by working through the ladders of provisioned esteem in school, earning achievements, letterman jackets and special tokens stapled to their diplomas. Oh so proud they all were to finally reach the precipice of their life: to be considered an "adult". They took out their overpriced loan and slaved over dysfunctional regimes but still followed it--despite the pain--in the name of tradition and conformity...

It's all they have ever known. Never did they consider that they could live for something much more, that they could live for what they genuinely desired and not what they were told to do. Never did they consider that the idea that living for happiness by approval is far more shallow compared to the happiness that comes from the self; genuine, true happiness from acceptance of life for what it is and not from the admiration we are given.

This is why I reject the idea that I will become a "grown-up". I find it irrelevant. I live for here and now. I live for my pleasure and not what is provisioned by a supposed authority and its labels. They try to provision their perception and their ideals upon me but to no effect because, again, I live for myself; not the ladders nor what a supposed "society" has given me. I don't even recognize its existence. I recognize and admire only individuals. I recognize and admire life by my own perception, my own rules and my own happiness.

[1714150938]

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[johnj]

blah blah blah

straw-man straw-man straw-man

entitlement

FTFY

[Rassah]

After having "grown up" back when I was in my teens, I now live to try as hard as I can NOT to grow up. Growing up is no fun at all! Totally agree with you, and keep doing what you're doing. (Though I do admit at sometimes being ageist and thinking you are naive at times due to your age. I need to keep remembering that it has to do with ignorance, not age, and many older people here are far more ignorant than you)

[MoonShadow]

In every argument, somebody comes in and claims:

"Oh, Immanuel, once you grow up and do actual work you'll begin to think like me and support government programs and the status quo."

As I am sure that you are already aware, this is what grown ups say to teens when they are losing an argument due to being unable to respond to a rational and thought out position.  They likely think that you are nieve, but if you asked them if they believed as you do when they were your age, they will invariablely say no.

[johnj]

In every argument, somebody comes in and claims:

"Oh, Immanuel, once you grow up and do actual work you'll begin to think like me and support government programs and the status quo."

As I am sure that you are already aware, this is what grown ups say to teens when they are losing an argument due to being unable to respond to a rational and thought out position.  They likely think that you are nieve, but if you asked them if they believed as you do when they were your age, they will invariablely say no.

This is also what 'grown ups' say when the younger one doesn't have a clue about simple ramifications.

"Get away from the hot stove"

"NO!"

"Get away from the hot stove, now"

"I don't wanna!  Why should I!? You don't ever let me have any fun"

"YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU'RE OLDER, GET AWAY FROM THE FUCKING STOVE NOW"

Certainly you aren't suggesting that the 'grown up' is losing that argument. The 'you'll understand when you're a grown up' line only comes up when it's obvious the person you're talking too doesn't have adequate life experience to understand certain concepts.

[Rassah]

"Get away from the hot stove"

"NO!"

"Get away from the hot stove, now"

"I don't wanna!  Why should I!? You don't ever let me have any fun"

"YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU'RE OLDER, GET AWAY FROM THE FUCKING STOVE NOW"

Certainly you aren't suggesting that the 'grown up' is losing that argument. The 'you'll understand when you're a grown up' line only comes up when it's obvious the person you're talking too doesn't have adequate life experience to understand certain concepts.

Point is that you say, "because it's hot and you'll burn yourself," or "I've done it before, got hurt, and want you to learn from my mistakes." The "you'll understand when you're older" is a stupid copout for someone who doesn't know the answer, and I am VERY lucky that my parents never used that line on me for any topics.

[johnj]

"Get away from the hot stove"

"NO!"

"Get away from the hot stove, now"

"I don't wanna!  Why should I!? You don't ever let me have any fun"

"YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU'RE OLDER, GET AWAY FROM THE FUCKING STOVE NOW"

Certainly you aren't suggesting that the 'grown up' is losing that argument. The 'you'll understand when you're a grown up' line only comes up when it's obvious the person you're talking too doesn't have adequate life experience to understand certain concepts.

Point is that you say, "because it's hot and you'll burn yourself," or "I've done it before, got hurt, and want you to learn from my mistakes." The "you'll understand when you're older" is a stupid copout for someone who doesn't know the answer, and I am VERY lucky that my parents never used that line on me for any topics.

Find me a kid who readily listens to reason on the first try.

They don't exist.

[MoonShadow]

"Get away from the hot stove"

"NO!"

"Get away from the hot stove, now"

"I don't wanna!  Why should I!? You don't ever let me have any fun"

"YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU'RE OLDER, GET AWAY FROM THE FUCKING STOVE NOW"

Certainly you aren't suggesting that the 'grown up' is losing that argument. The 'you'll understand when you're a grown up' line only comes up when it's obvious the person you're talking too doesn't have adequate life experience to understand certain concepts.

Point is that you say, "because it's hot and you'll burn yourself," or "I've done it before, got hurt, and want you to learn from my mistakes." The "you'll understand when you're older" is a stupid copout for someone who doesn't know the answer, and I am VERY lucky that my parents never used that line on me for any topics.

Find me a kid who readily listens to reason on the first try.

They don't exist.

Mine did, at three.  "Stay away from that blue flame, son, it's hot and it will hurt you."  Worked fine the first time. 

[johnj]

While a stove isn't the best example for this, you could also let the child fail and learn from his own mistakes. So the child burns his hand (in this case not fatally)? I think the pain will teach him not to do that again. How did man originally figure out fire is harmful in the first place? All discoveries are originally found by stumbling along, trial and error.

Right, until CPS shows up on your doorstep asking why your kid has a burned hand.

Care to try again?

[JA37]

"I'm not young enough to know everything"
   -- Oscar Wilde

[johnj]

While a stove isn't the best example for this, you could also let the child fail and learn from his own mistakes. So the child burns his hand (in this case not fatally)? I think the pain will teach him not to do that again. How did man originally figure out fire is harmful in the first place? All discoveries are originally found by stumbling along, trial and error.

Right, until CPS shows up on your doorstep asking why your kid has a burned hand.

Care to try again?

Most kids get hurt. Rich and poor. If CPS is taking kids over them being children, I think society has a problem. If your kid is so god-damn retarded and dysfunctionally raised that he sticks his hand on the stove in defiance, I think you have problems much larger than this isolated situation.

A friend of mine had a run in with CPS recently

His son is 1.5yrs old, and had a -tiny- bruise on his eyelid.  The CPS worker had to write down everything.  They off work to take their son to the doctor for a mandatory check up, due to the bruise.  The doctor thought the whole thing was a waste of his time, as the bruise was isolated, insignificant, and on a 1.5yr old BOY.

Again, this is why 'grown ups' get frustrated and say 'you'll understand when you're older', because you simply don't have enough life experience to know how the world works. You can defer to 'oh if hes dysfunctional and defiant, bigger problems, blah blah' but your assertions are all hypothetical as you have no experience.

Thus, you'll understand when you're older.

@Moon

I'm glad you're having better luck than I am.  However I think your case is a (wonderful) exeption, not the rule.

[JA37]

"I'm not young enough to know everything"
   -- Oscar Wilde

Then they pull this one. Every once awhile when I'm making a point, somebody goes out and claims,

"You're only 17! You don't know everything!"

Have I ever made that claim and what puts you above me? Why does your age make you so much wise? I am certain of my own ignorance and I am also certain that old people can be pretty damn ignorant.

The point is that with youth comes certainty. When I was young I was sure of many things. Right and wrong. Black and white. Good and evil. This is very obvious in 6-8 year olds. And well documented in many psychology books. With age comes brain development that enables people to recognize that things are not so simple. Most people develop this skill to various degree. Add experience to that and you'll have someone who could have an advantage in understanding the world.
I don't claim to be above you in any aspect. I do however know that when I was 17 (if that's your age) I was very sure of things that I'm not any more.
Older doesn't necessarily mean wiser, but it does often mean more experienced.

And I think I'll use that quote of yours above. "I'm only 99! I don't know everything!"  

[Hawker]

In addition, if you treat children like children that's all they will ever be. They will never have the inner incentive to be more if all you do is admonish and regulate their behavior. I learned that through being a child. I've taken my own initiative and I have been made far more wiser through doing so.

When you challenge someone's beliefs and they have no easy answer, an ad hominem argument is a lazy response.  You could just ignore it and carry on winning the argument - they wouldn't be insulting you if you were not winning.

[MoonShadow]

"I'm not young enough to know everything"
   -- Oscar Wilde

Then they pull this one. Every once awhile when I'm making a point, somebody goes out and claims,

"You're only 17! You don't know everything!"

Have I ever made that claim and what puts you above me? Why does your age make you so much wise? I am certain of my own ignorance and I am also certain that old people can be pretty damn ignorant.

The point is that with youth comes certainty. When I was young I was sure of many things. Right and wrong. Black and white. Good and evil. This is very obvious in 6-8 year olds. And well documented in many psychology books.

Yes, and so is projection. 

[The Script]

"I'm not young enough to know everything"
   -- Oscar Wilde

Then they pull this one. Every once awhile when I'm making a point, somebody goes out and claims,

"You're only 17! You don't know everything!"

Have I ever made that claim and what puts you above me? Why does your age make you so much wise? I am certain of my own ignorance and I am also certain that old people can be pretty damn ignorant.

The point is that with youth comes certainty. When I was young I was sure of many things. Right and wrong. Black and white. Good and evil. This is very obvious in 6-8 year olds. And well documented in many psychology books. With age comes brain development that enables people to recognize that things are not so simple. Most people develop this skill to various degree. Add experience to that and you'll have someone who could have an advantage in understanding the world.
I don't claim to be above you in any aspect. I do however know that when I was 17 (if that's your age) I was very sure of things that I'm not any more.
Older doesn't necessarily mean wiser, but it does often mean more experienced.

And I think I'll use that quote of yours above. "I'm only 99! I don't know everything!"  

Mad props to you for being the only 99-year-old on the internet. 

I'm not certain of much of anything anymore.  But I see a few self-admitted "older" people on this forum who seem very confident that I and others who challenge the status quo are absolutely wrong.  Ironic, yes?

Sometimes older people just become apathetic.  Call it "experience" or whatever you want, but I've seen so many older people who are comfortable in life and don't want to be challenged or look past their well-bounded world view.  They are well-established in life and don't want to take as many risks.  That's fine.  But I sometimes wonder if their opposition and condescension to younger people is because they are jealous deep down inside that they no longer have that enthusiasm and drive.  I'm not insinuating that that is the case with you, but I've seen it in others.

[Jalum]

I came to realize that I didn't do homework because the way it's made and issued is bullshit. Nobody is supposed to learn this way and the ones who do conform to it are doing themselves a disservice and I adapted around that fact. I found the optimal route on my own.

Do your homework.  I've just given you the best advice you've ever gotten on this forum.

Do.  Your.  Homework.

[JeffK]

"I'm not young enough to know everything"
   -- Oscar Wilde

Then they pull this one. Every once awhile when I'm making a point, somebody goes out and claims,

"You're only 17! You don't know everything!"

Have I ever made the claim that I know so much and what puts you above me? Why does your age make you so much wiser? I am certain of my own ignorance and I am also certain that old people can be pretty damn ignorant.

The biggest source of knowledge from "growing up" isn't the things you study or read but what you learn from the experiences of interacting with and observing LOTS AND LOTS of people, many of them wildly different from you.

I'd imagine many of the 'old people' you know to be pretty damn ignorant likely limit themselves to small, insular groups of people just like them who reinforce their beliefs.

For example, someone could sit in their room all day, reading articles online and post musings about human knowledge, rational actors, etc; but all the theorycrafting in your head is worthless when compared to actual experiences dealing with people and understanding why people know some things and not others or do not always make rational decisions and so on.