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Author Topic: Having a sell low + buy high order with no fund = Be cautious (X2 the Fees)  (Read 1531 times)
Transisto
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October 14, 2011, 03:50:55 AM
 #1

I had a 2 month old buy order at 13$ and tried to gamble some BTC at 4$.
Mtgox should not be taking fees from two order that self-fulfill themselves. or at least display a warning.


Also, I don't know what the fuck went wrong with Mt.Gox, (bots I suppose)  but they should have a condensed History which we can understand, including order placed, not just bits of order fulfilled.
Selling 100btc gave me 6 page long of clueless.log

Quote
...
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:33 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555953972562] 2.02721413 BTC at $4.03283    2.02721413 BTC    414.89860580 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555947945559] 1.00000000 BTC at $4.03283    1.00000000 BTC    416.92581993 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Fee    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947742502] 1.03945120 BTC at $4.03283 (0.6% fee)    0.00623671 BTC    417.92581993 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    In    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947742502] 1.03945120 BTC at $4.03283    1.03945120 BTC    417.93205664 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555947742502] 1.03945120 BTC at $4.03283    1.03945120 BTC    416.89260544 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Fee    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947574780] 1.04572471 BTC at $4.03283 (0.6% fee)    0.00627435 BTC    417.93205664 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    In    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947574780] 1.04572471 BTC at $4.03283    1.04572471 BTC    417.93833099 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555947574780] 1.04572471 BTC at $4.03283    1.04572471 BTC    416.89260628 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Fee    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947400808] 1.05203789 BTC at $4.03283 (0.6% fee)    0.00631223 BTC    417.93833099 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    In    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947400808] 1.05203789 BTC at $4.03283    1.05203789 BTC    417.94464322 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555947400808] 1.05203789 BTC at $4.03283    1.05203789 BTC    416.89260533 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:19 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555939316501] 1.00000000 BTC at $4.03283    1.00000000 BTC    417.94464322 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:19 AM GMT    Fee    BTC bought: [tid:1318555939091812] 0.05838827 BTC at $4.03283 (0.6% fee)    0.00035033 BTC    418.94464322 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:19 AM GMT    In    BTC bought: [tid:1318555939091812] 0.05838827 BTC at $4.03283    0.05838827 BTC    418.94499355 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:19 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555939091812] 0.05838827 BTC at $4.03283    0.05838827 BTC    418.88660528 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:14 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555934216132] 0.05874065 BTC at $4.03284    0.05874065 BTC    418.94499355 BTC
..........................
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bitflower
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October 14, 2011, 05:37:02 AM
 #2

Sorry, but we charge fees for each order.

What part are you having difficulty understanding in the history? We would like to help make it more understandable for all users.

Jasmine
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October 14, 2011, 06:01:27 AM
 #3

might be better if gox had a transaction id which would identify the which buy or sell the completed order belonged to and a history of buy sell orders as well as the current history.

having the ability to automate buy and sell orders without confirmation is essential. op should cancel orders that you don't won't to be executed.

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October 14, 2011, 06:52:24 AM
 #4

might be better if gox had a transaction id which would identify the which buy or sell the completed order belonged to and a history of buy sell orders as well as the current history.

having the ability to automate buy and sell orders without confirmation is essential. op should cancel orders that you don't won't to be executed.

Thank you for the suggestion. I will pass it to our development team.

Jasmine
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October 14, 2011, 07:27:52 AM
 #5

I had a 2 month old buy order at 13$ and tried to gamble some BTC at 4$.
Mtgox should not be taking fees from two order that self-fulfill themselves. or at least display a warning.


Also, I don't know what the fuck went wrong with Mt.Gox, (bots I suppose)  but they should have a condensed History which we can understand, including order placed, not just bits of order fulfilled.
Selling 100btc gave me 6 page long of clueless.log

Quote
...
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:33 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555953972562] 2.02721413 BTC at $4.03283    2.02721413 BTC    414.89860580 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555947945559] 1.00000000 BTC at $4.03283    1.00000000 BTC    416.92581993 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Fee    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947742502] 1.03945120 BTC at $4.03283 (0.6% fee)    0.00623671 BTC    417.92581993 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    In    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947742502] 1.03945120 BTC at $4.03283    1.03945120 BTC    417.93205664 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555947742502] 1.03945120 BTC at $4.03283    1.03945120 BTC    416.89260544 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Fee    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947574780] 1.04572471 BTC at $4.03283 (0.6% fee)    0.00627435 BTC    417.93205664 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    In    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947574780] 1.04572471 BTC at $4.03283    1.04572471 BTC    417.93833099 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555947574780] 1.04572471 BTC at $4.03283    1.04572471 BTC    416.89260628 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Fee    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947400808] 1.05203789 BTC at $4.03283 (0.6% fee)    0.00631223 BTC    417.93833099 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    In    BTC bought: [tid:1318555947400808] 1.05203789 BTC at $4.03283    1.05203789 BTC    417.94464322 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:27 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555947400808] 1.05203789 BTC at $4.03283    1.05203789 BTC    416.89260533 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:19 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555939316501] 1.00000000 BTC at $4.03283    1.00000000 BTC    417.94464322 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:19 AM GMT    Fee    BTC bought: [tid:1318555939091812] 0.05838827 BTC at $4.03283 (0.6% fee)    0.00035033 BTC    418.94464322 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:19 AM GMT    In    BTC bought: [tid:1318555939091812] 0.05838827 BTC at $4.03283    0.05838827 BTC    418.94499355 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:19 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555939091812] 0.05838827 BTC at $4.03283    0.05838827 BTC    418.88660528 BTC
Fri 14 Oct 2011 01:32:14 AM GMT    Out    BTC sold: [tid:1318555934216132] 0.05874065 BTC at $4.03284    0.05874065 BTC    418.94499355 BTC
..........................

Please be aware that because Mt.Gox system executes trades automatically, we can not control orders that self-fulfill themselves.

Jasmine
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October 14, 2011, 09:33:35 AM
 #6

The issue of someone trading with himself is a complex issue.


If we just avoid executing the trade, we'll end with weird looking spread (overlapping buy/sell).

If we execute the orders without fees, we create an easy way for anyone to increase their trading volume and get lower trade fees without any actual trade.

One third solution would be to have both trades execute, but not record trade history. That's a bit more complex and is an issue as it wouldn't result in any traceable record for us, so it's not much of an option either.


So the last option is here, just execute orders normally. We expect people playing with stop orders have some understanding of the orders they have placed, and will know better than sell bitcoins for lower than they are trying to buy at.

Transisto
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October 17, 2011, 08:07:00 PM
 #7

that self-fulfill themselves. or at least display a warning.

That could be a solution.
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October 18, 2011, 05:18:28 PM
 #8

I had a 2 month old buy order at 13$....
No you didn't, if you put in an order to buy BTC for $13 it would have been filled as soon as the price dropped below $13 a month ago.

What you did is fat finger something, likely you put a low buy order in when you mean to put in another standing sell BTC order, and you ended up executing a trade to yourself (and possibly other traders). From your nomenclature mistake above, I can see you being confused.

If it is possible to sell to yourself, it would also be possible to put in a huge buy order just above the spread, and then put in a huge sell order below that, and have mtgox trade all the BTC in your account over and over iteratively until it was all converted into fees.

It looks like what is needed is to block submission of buy orders that are lower than a user's current sell orders and vice versa, and warn the user that they must be mistaken in their submission.

Transisto
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October 18, 2011, 06:38:41 PM
 #9

I had a 2 month old buy order at 13$....
No you didn't, if you put in an order to buy BTC for $13 it would have been filled as soon as the price dropped below $13 a month ago.

What you did is fat finger something, likely you put a low buy order in when you mean to put in another standing sell BTC order, and you ended up executing a trade to yourself (and possibly other traders). From your nomenclature mistake above, I can see you being confused....

I know what I did, price was at ~13$ 2 months ago.

This is what happen with you have ZERO fund, buy order at 13$ get processed when you get fund from selling BTC at 2.50$
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October 25, 2011, 11:21:41 AM
 #10

Yeah, when you don't have any funds, the buy order will remain there. When you then sell some BTC, you get dollars, and the buy order will suddenly be executed.

In my opinion, this is kind of obvious, and is exactly what you ordered the system to do. I don't see Mt.Gox having a fault in this. The old trade orders are right beneath the form when you click "trade".

Transisto
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October 25, 2011, 04:16:12 PM
 #11

Yeah, when you don't have any funds, the buy order will remain there. When you then sell some BTC, you get dollars, and the buy order will suddenly be executed.

In my opinion, this is kind of obvious, and is exactly what you ordered the system to do. I don't see Mt.Gox having a fault in this. The old trade orders are right beneath the form when you click "trade".
Exactly, not mt Gox fault, I changed the OP title,

Notheless the only reason why someone would do this is to create fake volume and activity on the exchange.

Since there is not really a legitimate use for this feature, I think we could be warned with a confirmation dialog.
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October 26, 2011, 02:53:08 PM
 #12

Yeah, when you don't have any funds, the buy order will remain there. When you then sell some BTC, you get dollars, and the buy order will suddenly be executed.

In my opinion, this is kind of obvious, and is exactly what you ordered the system to do. I don't see Mt.Gox having a fault in this. The old trade orders are right beneath the form when you click "trade".
Exactly, not mt Gox fault, I changed the OP title,

Notheless the only reason why someone would do this is to create fake volume and activity on the exchange.

Since there is not really a legitimate use for this feature, I think we could be warned with a confirmation dialog.

You screwed up and lost a few bucks.  I think plenty of us have done that.  I know I have.  Suck it up and vow to be more careful next time.

But, don't think that there isn't a use for this feature just because you can't think of one.  This is called the iceberg system, and it is incredibly useful, but it does require some care on your part.

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October 26, 2011, 03:07:36 PM
 #13

If you have a higher trade volume, then you are given a lower transaction fee. Could somebody run a few trades with himself, thus paying the double transaction fee as a way to get to the lower trading fees? I do not think it would actually help you, since the fee is not lowered by much.

What about the changeover point between fees - is it pro-rata or would you pay the entire fee for each trade?

Example:

What if your volume was 1999 btc and your fee rate was on 0.5%

Then mtgox says "if your volume is 2000+ then your rate will be 0.4%".

Then, you want to trade 1000 btc, can you trade it all at once, and pay 0.5% on 1 btc and 0.4% on 999 btc, or do you have to actually do a 1 btc trade separately first to bring down your fee rate, before proceeding to trade the other 999 btc with 0.4%?

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