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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 12:13:59 AM |
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So... when you convert it into a different asset... is that not "spending"?
You would consider converting USD to EUR spending? lol It's not "hoarding"/saving USD... |
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Etlase2
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October 20, 2011, 01:28:15 AM |
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It's not "hoarding"/saving USD... Nobody is forcing you to use bitcoins to pay taxes or for everyday products and services. The interest in bitcoin is almost unanimously about making money. Put your heads in the sand all you want, but bitcoin has failed in an utterly epic way as a medium of exchange. I'd hazard a guess that 95%+ of all bitcoin trades are either moving wallets or exchanging for real world currency. There is no economy whatsoever as is so evident by how easily the market is manipulated. Early(-ier) adopters are causing the fall of bitcoin before it will ever have a chance to get off the ground. I've said it before: how many times do you think people will take getting burned and volunteer their actually valued fiat cash money for some digital trash that could have its value dropped out at the whim of someone with a hoard of cheap coins. Each time these rounds of price drops cause thousands to lose thousands, people will be angry and tell others to stay the fuck away. The game is coming to a close with the final result being a few made lots of money, a lot lost a lot of money. Zero sum lol. |
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jtimon
Legendary
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Activity: 1372
Merit: 1002
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October 20, 2011, 01:30:46 PM |
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Nobody is forcing you to use bitcoins to pay taxes or for everyday products and services. The interest in bitcoin is almost unanimously about making money.
No. Many people are interested in bitcoin because they're interested in freedom. But if there where the only interest, what's wrong with that? Speculating with the price is not the only way to make money through bitcoin. Put your heads in the sand all you want, but bitcoin has failed in an utterly epic way as a medium of exchange.
By no means bitcoin has failed as a medium of exchange. It may have failed as a store of value. |
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Etlase2
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October 20, 2011, 02:01:11 PM |
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No. Many people are interested in bitcoin because they're interested in freedom. Yeah we've got a real bunch of William Wallaces around here. But if there where the only interest, what's wrong with that? Gee, I dunno, perhaps that it serves to transfer wealth and nothing else? Speculating with the price is not the only way to make money through bitcoin. Drinking milk is not the only way to get calcium either. By no means bitcoin has failed as a medium of exchange. It may have failed as a store of value. Broseph, they are one in the same. If your medium of exchange can't store value, who the hell is going to want to use it? If no one is using it, no one is demanding it, and :gasp: it's not a medium of exchange. Just because you can send digital trash tokens over the internet relatively easily doesn't mean it's a medium of exchange. |
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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 02:48:56 PM |
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Just because you can send digital trash tokens over the internet relatively easily doesn't mean it's a medium of exchange.
Yes, yes it does. Just because you say it's not a medium of exchange doesn't mean it isn't. A medium of exchange is an intermediary used in trade to avoid the inconveniences of a pure barter system. |
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Etlase2
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October 20, 2011, 03:18:38 PM |
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Yes, yes it does. Just because you say it's not a medium of exchange doesn't mean it isn't. Actually, it does. If you want something I have and I don't accept bitcoins, you're screwed. Why don't I accept bitcoins? Because I'm going to lose value if I do. At least, this is what any reasonable business entity is going to think. Ergo, its use is relegated to a bunch of nerds on the internet, no different from WoW gold. Except at least WoW gold supports an economy, lol. Bitcoins will always be about who can cash out first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_of_exchangeA medium of exchange permits the value of goods to be assessed and rendered in terms of the intermediary, most often, a form of money widely accepted to buy any other good. Money is the common Medium of Exchange and its most important and essential function is that it is 'measure of value'. To be widely acceptable, a medium of exchange should have stable purchasing power |
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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 03:24:27 PM |
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Yes, yes it does. Just because you say it's not a medium of exchange doesn't mean it isn't. Actually, it does. If you want something I have and I don't accept bitcoins, you're screwed. Why don't I accept bitcoins? Because I'm going to lose value if I do. At least, this is what any reasonable business entity is going to think. Ergo, its use is relegated to a bunch of nerds on the internet, no different from WoW gold. Except at least WoW gold supports an economy, lol. Bitcoins will always be about who can cash out first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_of_exchangeA medium of exchange permits the value of goods to be assessed and rendered in terms of the intermediary, most often, a form of money widely accepted to buy any other good. Money is the common Medium of Exchange and its most important and essential function is that it is 'measure of value'. To be widely acceptable, a medium of exchange should have stable purchasing power All of your quotes indicate that bitcoin is a medium of exchange, though not a widely accepted one. If I want something you have and you don't accept Euros, does that mean the Euro isn't a medium of exchange? |
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Etlase2
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October 20, 2011, 03:35:55 PM |
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How do you read "a form of money widely accepted to buy any other good" to mean "a form of money that may or may not be widely accepted to buy any other good"?
Rose-colored glasses, perhaps? Widely accepted is open to interpretation, but a few thousand nerds on the internet doesn't fit for mine. And bitcoin patently fails at all 3 of the quotes I provided.
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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 05:05:14 PM |
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How do you read "a form of money widely accepted to buy any other good" to mean "a form of money that may or may not be widely accepted to buy any other good"?
Rose-colored glasses, perhaps? Widely accepted is open to interpretation, but a few thousand nerds on the internet doesn't fit for mine. And bitcoin patently fails at all 3 of the quotes I provided.
Because you suck at emphasizing the important concepts in a sentence. A medium of exchange permits the value of goods to be assessed and rendered in terms of the intermediary, most often, a form of money widely accepted to buy any other good. As in, something can be a medium of exchange and NOT be "a form of money widely accepted to buy any other good". To be widely acceptable, a medium of exchange should have stable purchasing power As in, something can be a medium of exchange and NOT "be widely acceptable" or "have stable purchasing power". |
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Etlase2
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October 20, 2011, 06:12:06 PM |
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A medium of exchange permits the value of goods to be assessed and rendered in terms of the intermediary, most often, a form of money widely accepted to buy any other good. As in, something can be a medium of exchange and NOT be "a form of money widely accepted to buy any other good". ROFL, "most often" is referring to MONEY you blathering fool. Of course you can trade anything you want for something else if someone is willing to take it. That's called barter. A system that a medium of exchange is attempting to fix. As in, something can be a medium of exchange and NOT "be widely acceptable" or "have stable purchasing power". When the intermediary is used only to convert to other intermediaries, you have what is known as a bitcoin, or digital trash token. I think I'll add the "medium to medium of exchange" entry to wikipedia myself. |
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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 06:48:56 PM |
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When the intermediary is used only to convert to other intermediaries, you have what is known as a bitcoin, or digital trash token. I think I'll add the "medium to medium of exchange" entry to wikipedia myself.
Make the claim as much as you want, it doesn't make it true. Unless you're claiming that because Bitcoin cannot be used by a business to pay for their operating costs, thus they must exchange it for another currency to do so, means that it is not a medium of exchange. In that case, I'd love for you to point me to a definition of medium of exchange that has this requirement. |
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Etlase2
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October 20, 2011, 07:29:41 PM |
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Make the claim as much as you want, it doesn't make it true. Unless you're claiming that because Bitcoin cannot be used by a business to pay for their operating costs, thus they must exchange it for another currency to do so, means that it is not a medium of exchange. In that case, I'd love for you to point me to a definition of medium of exchange that has this requirement. what I claimed was this: I'd hazard a guess that 95%+ of all bitcoin trades are either moving wallets or exchanging for real world currency. There is no economy whatsoever as is so evident by how easily the market is manipulated. The retarded, asinine structure of bitcoin promotes hoarding and speculation, not trade. This is never going to change. The greed-induced early adopter design may have been necessary for it to reach the mass of users it has this soon, but it is also causing whatever minimalist economy it had to shrink because of that greed. |
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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 08:33:16 PM |
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what I claimed was this: I'd hazard a guess that 95%+ of all bitcoin trades are either moving wallets or exchanging for real world currency. There is no economy whatsoever as is so evident by how easily the market is manipulated. The retarded, asinine structure of bitcoin promotes hoarding and speculation, not trade. This is never going to change. The greed-induced early adopter design may have been necessary for it to reach the mass of users it has this soon, but it is also causing whatever minimalist economy it had to shrink because of that greed. So you made a claim, big deal. I'd hazard a guess that 95% of your brain cells do not function. If I repeat it over and over again, it will eventually become true! You're just trying to push the FUD so people will take your *coin clone idea, which is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of economic incentives, seriously. |
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Etlase2
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October 20, 2011, 08:45:55 PM |
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I was pushing FUD before I ever came up with an alternative idea to bitcoin. And I'd say my claims that $30, $15, $10, and even $5 were completely unsustainable price points for the bitcoin economy came true. But a lot of other people were claiming $100 by the end of the year, if they said it enough it must be true! Well, assuming you never look at the trade price anyway.
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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 09:01:06 PM |
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I was pushing FUD before I ever came up with an alternative idea to bitcoin. And I'd say my claims that $30, $15, $10, and even $5 were completely unsustainable price points for the bitcoin economy came true. But a lot of other people were claiming $100 by the end of the year, if they said it enough it must be true! Well, assuming you never look at the trade price anyway.
So $30 was unsustainable at the time, and only $2 may be sustainable right now. That says nothing about the future of Bitcoin, nor the future of the exchange rate between Bitcoin and USD. |
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Etlase2
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October 20, 2011, 10:06:02 PM |
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Yes, the answer is BUY BUY BUY! $2 is an opportunity!
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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 10:22:48 PM |
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Yes, the answer is BUY BUY BUY! $2 is an opportunity!
$2 is an opportunity, to me. Your subjective value judgement is no more special than mine. |
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jtimon
Legendary
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Activity: 1372
Merit: 1002
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October 21, 2011, 12:06:31 AM |
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The medium of exchange doesn't have to be perfect for storing or measuring value. If that was the case, we couldn't use dollars, euros or gold to trade. It doesn't even need to be cash, it can be built directly on pure credit. By pure here I mean directional, from person to person, instead of from a whole community of currency users to person, like cash. Money is always credit in the deep. Even the monetary value of gold (the part of its value that comes from its use as money) is credit. Morgan was wrong. If you really want a stable unit of value, don't trust cash, just define a basket of products that fits with your concept of stability, use a currency that is not issued, that only exists in contracts and lists of prices. If you want an abstract (like money) and perfect store of value, forget it. That's simply not possible. |
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Etlase2
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October 21, 2011, 02:59:38 AM |
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Perfect? No, of course not. Raising millions of percent in value then tumbling thousands of percent in a span of a few months? Just a hair on the wrong side of ridiculous.
The reference currency is kind of a cool idea though.
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jtimon
Legendary
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Activity: 1372
Merit: 1002
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October 21, 2011, 07:35:31 AM |
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The reference currency is kind of a cool idea though.
Thank you. Perfect? No, of course not. Raising millions of percent in value then tumbling thousands of percent in a span of a few months? Just a hair on the wrong side of ridiculous.
So you can say that it has failed as a store and measure of value, but not as a medium of exchange because its being used for trade. It will get more stable when it get more users and the bitcoin economy gets bigger. It's just to soon. I wouldn't expect it to be any stable before 2013 anyway. The first drop in reward will affect the price. The retarded, asinine structure of bitcoin promotes hoarding and speculation, not trade. This is never going to change. The greed-induced early adopter design may have been necessary for it to reach the mass of users it has this soon, but it is also causing whatever minimalist economy it had to shrink because of that greed.
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