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 Author Topic: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems  (Read 4333 times)
narking
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 23, 2018, 08:42:35 AM

As this ORE things are mineable forever, does that means the total supply of this coins became unlimited?
If that how it is, then how do you maintain the price of this coins?

The interesting part if you read the original post is that it has "No fixed reward and no fixed supply", depending on mining power it will adjust accordingly if I understand correctly.

There is no calculable supply.  Only a likelihood:  So for instance there are about:

1.206*10^24 possible ore positions:

On average only 1 in 830k positions yields a hash starting in the range fff4->ffff, which is only the gateway condition, so that reduces the probability to:
1.45*10^18

Then, there are only 9000 magic beans of Unsigned 32 Bit Integer which have to be exactly matched within the hash. Those obviously have a combination of 4,294,967,295 possible values, and the key has 60 chances to match one of only 9000.

This drops the possibilities to (and i've just roughly tried to work this out so please forgive some rounding):
182,306,394,022,900

Now these on average may have a value of around 0.48 veldspar (based on running some numbers this morning).

But, as depletion takes hold an exponential chance of finding ore which has already been mined occurs. Making, the emission not a straight forward line.

AND

The ORE & Hashes are all incalculable and random.  Which makes a straightforward calculation exceptionally difficult.  It could be that some sets of bytes yeild many results and some absolutely nothing.

Very good that you answer all the questions as needed. Usually the technical answers to get you need to go to the chat room and get there for a long time. With this approach, I am sure that you will succeed. Continue in the same spirit.
Edgar9
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 23, 2018, 10:25:38 AM

When can we expect token distribution?
editfmah (OP)
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 23, 2018, 10:28:31 AM

When can we expect token distribution?

As in transfers?  That is currently being worked on. It is not far off, but it has fallen behind making the node software stable.

I will be writing a medium post on the progress and other issues later on.
cyberspacemonkey
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 24, 2018, 04:41:43 AMLast edit: August 24, 2018, 05:13:30 AM by cyberspacemonkey

As this ORE things are mineable forever, does that means the total supply of this coins became unlimited?
If that how it is, then how do you maintain the price of this coins?

The interesting part if you read the original post is that it has "No fixed reward and no fixed supply", depending on mining power it will adjust accordingly if I understand correctly.

There is no calculable supply.  Only a likelihood:  So for instance there are about:

1.206*10^24 possible ore positions:

On average only 1 in 830k positions yields a hash starting in the range fff4->ffff, which is only the gateway condition, so that reduces the probability to:
1.45*10^18

Then, there are only 9000 magic beans of Unsigned 32 Bit Integer which have to be exactly matched within the hash. Those obviously have a combination of 4,294,967,295 possible values, and the key has 60 chances to match one of only 9000.

This drops the possibilities to (and i've just roughly tried to work this out so please forgive some rounding):
182,306,394,022,900

Now these on average may have a value of around 0.48 veldspar (based on running some numbers this morning).

But, as depletion takes hold an exponential chance of finding ore which has already been mined occurs. Making, the emission not a straight forward line.

AND

The ORE & Hashes are all incalculable and random.  Which makes a straightforward calculation exceptionally difficult.  It could be that some sets of bytes yeild many results and some absolutely nothing.

Thanks for the very well detailed explanation, and so like you mentioned in the medium article this is also going to make it very hard to get it listed on exchanges but do you think p2p trading would be possible once transactions are working?
editfmah (OP)
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 24, 2018, 05:06:16 AM

As this ORE things are mineable forever, does that means the total supply of this coins became unlimited?
If that how it is, then how do you maintain the price of this coins?

The interesting part if you read the original post is that it has "No fixed reward and no fixed supply", depending on mining power it will adjust accordingly if I understand correctly.

There is no calculable supply.  Only a likelihood:  So for instance there are about:

1.206*10^24 possible ore positions:

On average only 1 in 830k positions yields a hash starting in the range fff4->ffff, which is only the gateway condition, so that reduces the probability to:
1.45*10^18

Then, there are only 9000 magic beans of Unsigned 32 Bit Integer which have to be exactly matched within the hash. Those obviously have a combination of 4,294,967,295 possible values, and the key has 60 chances to match one of only 9000.

This drops the possibilities to (and i've just roughly tried to work this out so please forgive some rounding):
182,306,394,022,900

Now these on average may have a value of around 0.48 veldspar (based on running some numbers this morning).

But, as depletion takes hold an exponential chance of finding ore which has already been mined occurs. Making, the emission not a straight forward line.

AND

The ORE & Hashes are all incalculable and random.  Which makes a straightforward calculation exceptionally difficult.  It could be that some sets of bytes yeild many results and some absolutely nothing.

Thanks for the very well detailed explanation, and so like you mentioned in the medium article this is also going to make it very hard to get it listed on an exchanges but do you think p2p trading would be possible once transactions are working?

Yes, I think it would be possible.  It is more about getting good feedback from the exchanges as to how they might need to operate.  So far the Exchange i have contacted has not responded.  But I have talked to lead developers from other coin systems to try and establish what kinds of interfaces they need and how wallet arrangements would work in practice.

I don't think the economics will necessarily make it difficult to get listed, that would be more a choice for the investors to make.  I am not looking to make any sweeping changes to the way the coin operates, but, there will be a point where some decisions would have to be made about wether we take everything we have learned so far, and start again, run with modifications to the existing blockchain etc.

We are still alpha, and we would not have found these issues without significant input from miners, allowing us to work out how this concept worked in reality.

I will be posting another medium article within the next day detailing my thoughts and probably have a community poll to work out where to go from here, because the next formation (based on what we know), will be the final major structural change as we move into Beta/Release.

But I do want to make this absolutely clear, no-ones effort so far will be wasted, if we decide to shrink the ORE to reduce the supply then I will be converting existing tokens over to the newer, shorter format tokens and I will do that in an open and transparent way that is easily audit-able.

Then the community will need to decide if the wish to remain with the current fiat style denominations, or go for crazy satoshi numbers (which makes no difference but somehow make people more comfortable dealing with incomprehensible fractions).

As I say, the next major upheaval will kind of be the last hurrah before it gets more serious and starts to form an actual viable product.
editfmah (OP)
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 24, 2018, 05:13:21 AM

I should say for any spectators, feedback and suggestions are always welcome.  This is not a situation where one dev (who is not an economist) just arbitrarily makes decisions that affects the input people have already made, and only as a community of interested parties can we find a solution that meets the needs of many.

The reason to do things differently is to try and solve the issues facing current systems, so to that end, the best way to avoid them it to identify them early and make good decisions and that can only happen from feedback.
d13g0souz4
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 August 24, 2018, 05:54:08 AM

I should say for any spectators, feedback and suggestions are always welcome.  This is not a situation where one dev (who is not an economist) just arbitrarily makes decisions that affects the input people have already made, and only as a community of interested parties can we find a solution that meets the needs of many.

The reason to do things differently is to try and solve the issues facing current systems, so to that end, the best way to avoid them it to identify them early and make good decisions and that can only happen from feedback.

I like the idea of denominations like FIA, I also believe that this notation can make it easier for non crypto gurus understand how this tokens works.

CoinFocus
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 24, 2018, 06:59:26 AM

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cyberspacemonkey
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 26, 2018, 08:28:42 AM

So I tried compiling the miner from source again and it still continues to crash, however I tried using the pre-compiled from the github and it works fine.
narking
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 26, 2018, 10:12:25 AM

So I tried compiling the miner from source again and it still continues to crash, however I tried using the pre-compiled from the github and it works fine.

Very strange is it different types of miners? In this case, the team must be corrected and equated with what is on the githab to everyone else. I usually just from what I put in the githab always take because the site is easier to hack and put the virus but the githab hack is harder.
cyberspacemonkey
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 26, 2018, 10:38:12 AM

So I tried compiling the miner from source again and it still continues to crash, however I tried using the pre-compiled from the github and it works fine.

Very strange is it different types of miners? In this case, the team must be corrected and equated with what is on the githab to everyone else. I usually just from what I put in the githab always take because the site is easier to hack and put the virus but the githab hack is harder.

No, what you're saying does not make sense. The difference could be because of the versions of libraries and dependencies that I used to compile it.
CjMapope
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~Full-Time Minter since 2016~

 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 27, 2018, 12:35:32 AM

So I tried compiling the miner from source again and it still continues to crash, however I tried using the pre-compiled from the github and it works fine.

Very strange is it different types of miners? In this case, the team must be corrected and equated with what is on the githab to everyone else. I usually just from what I put in the githab always take because the site is easier to hack and put the virus but the githab hack is harder.

No, what you're saying does not make sense. The difference could be because of the versions of libraries and dependencies that I used to compile it.

muthafucker cant even SPELL github, and they try talk like they know how code works.
if he did he would have realized how what he was saying was one of the dumbest coding sentences you could ever speak
and that it would be OBVIOUSLY an environment problem if he knew what he was saying, as YOU said

this is what spammers have made this forum

Looking forward to velspar development, this is finally something INTERESTING atleast

~Got this girl in my bed, a roof over my head, i mint a couple coins a week, and thats how i make bread~
~On the 12th day of Hatzvah, OGminer said to me: "compute root of the merkle hash tree!"~
Prohashing  -- Simply the best Multipool!
editfmah (OP)
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 28, 2018, 05:18:41 AM

Another blog detailing some of the short term, future plans.

https://medium.com/@napoleonbonafrog/falling-apart-under-pressure-cdfa55636ae3
pinball_wizard
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I am the Kung Fury...

 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 28, 2018, 08:41:14 AM

Really glad to see something different, welcome Veldspar and good luck! Will keep an eye on you...

Get Free Airdrop Now!
editfmah (OP)
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 28, 2018, 09:03:37 AM

So, the poll posted on Discord was as follows:  (This probably isn't the best place to hold a poll but hey!)

1) Should we stick with the current Fiat style of denomination or move to satoshi style? (0.00 :thumbsup: , 0.00000000 :thumbsdown: ) ?

2) There will be another Blockchain restart, no-one will loose any tokens, does everyone understand this or will I get loads of DM's and Mentions on here (Yes I Understand :thumbsup: , no I need to be banned :smiley:  :thumbsdown: )

You have to think about more than just the perceived value of what you have mined so far when thinking about the next question.  Because just because something is scarce does not automatically add value, there also has to be liquidity.

People HODL'ing really hurts a currency if there is not enough to have movement on exchanges, so wanting only 10MM in circulation will kill everything flat if you want this coin to succeed.  But also you do not want everything to be too numerous either.

With that in mind, would you like the economic target to be (estimated) (all at 0.00 denominations, otherwise far more tokens need to be produced :

1)   100M Veldspar (around 50M Tokens)
2)  500M Veldspar (around 250M Tokens)
3)  1BN Veldspar (you get the point)
4)  10BN, Veldspar
5)  100BN Veldspar
6)  1TN Veldspar
7)  Other(edited)
rgsnedds
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 28, 2018, 09:16:07 AM

So, the poll posted on Discord was as follows:  (This probably isn't the best place to hold a poll but hey!)

1) Should we stick with the current Fiat style of denomination or move to satoshi style? (0.00 :thumbsup: , 0.00000000 :thumbsdown: ) ?

2) There will be another Blockchain restart, no-one will loose any tokens, does everyone understand this or will I get loads of DM's and Mentions on here (Yes I Understand :thumbsup: , no I need to be banned :smiley:  :thumbsdown: )

You have to think about more than just the perceived value of what you have mined so far when thinking about the next question.  Because just because something is scarce does not automatically add value, there also has to be liquidity.

People HODL'ing really hurts a currency if there is not enough to have movement on exchanges, so wanting only 10MM in circulation will kill everything flat if you want this coin to succeed.  But also you do not want everything to be too numerous either.

With that in mind, would you like the economic target to be (estimated) (all at 0.00 denominations, otherwise far more tokens need to be produced :

1)   100M Veldspar (around 50M Tokens)
2)  500M Veldspar (around 250M Tokens)
3)  1BN Veldspar (you get the point)
4)  10BN, Veldspar
5)  100BN Veldspar
6)  1TN Veldspar
7)  Other(edited)

Oh, i missed this?!
cyberspacemonkey
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 30, 2018, 02:15:08 AM

So, the poll posted on Discord was as follows:  (This probably isn't the best place to hold a poll but hey!)

1) Should we stick with the current Fiat style of denomination or move to satoshi style? (0.00 :thumbsup: , 0.00000000 :thumbsdown: ) ?

2) There will be another Blockchain restart, no-one will loose any tokens, does everyone understand this or will I get loads of DM's and Mentions on here (Yes I Understand :thumbsup: , no I need to be banned :smiley:  :thumbsdown: )

You have to think about more than just the perceived value of what you have mined so far when thinking about the next question.  Because just because something is scarce does not automatically add value, there also has to be liquidity.

People HODL'ing really hurts a currency if there is not enough to have movement on exchanges, so wanting only 10MM in circulation will kill everything flat if you want this coin to succeed.  But also you do not want everything to be too numerous either.

With that in mind, would you like the economic target to be (estimated) (all at 0.00 denominations, otherwise far more tokens need to be produced :

1)   100M Veldspar (around 50M Tokens)
2)  500M Veldspar (around 250M Tokens)
3)  1BN Veldspar (you get the point)
4)  10BN, Veldspar
5)  100BN Veldspar
6)  1TN Veldspar
7)  Other(edited)

Oh, i missed this?!

Is the poll still ongoing? I would vote to move to satoshi style denomination and for supply I guess I'm ok with 10BN Veldspar.
editfmah (OP)
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 30, 2018, 08:27:52 AM

So, the poll posted on Discord was as follows:  (This probably isn't the best place to hold a poll but hey!)

1) Should we stick with the current Fiat style of denomination or move to satoshi style? (0.00 :thumbsup: , 0.00000000 :thumbsdown: ) ?

2) There will be another Blockchain restart, no-one will loose any tokens, does everyone understand this or will I get loads of DM's and Mentions on here (Yes I Understand :thumbsup: , no I need to be banned :smiley:  :thumbsdown: )

You have to think about more than just the perceived value of what you have mined so far when thinking about the next question.  Because just because something is scarce does not automatically add value, there also has to be liquidity.

People HODL'ing really hurts a currency if there is not enough to have movement on exchanges, so wanting only 10MM in circulation will kill everything flat if you want this coin to succeed.  But also you do not want everything to be too numerous either.

With that in mind, would you like the economic target to be (estimated) (all at 0.00 denominations, otherwise far more tokens need to be produced :

1)   100M Veldspar (around 50M Tokens)
2)  500M Veldspar (around 250M Tokens)
3)  1BN Veldspar (you get the point)
4)  10BN, Veldspar
5)  100BN Veldspar
6)  1TN Veldspar
7)  Other(edited)

Oh, i missed this?!

Is the poll still ongoing? I would vote to move to satoshi style denomination and for supply I guess I'm ok with 10BN Veldspar.

Yes it's still open until I feel everyone has had a fair say and put their positions forward.  So is that 10BN + 8dp, would be 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 units. I'd hate to think about the size of the blockchain at that point (around 7TB).  8dp, and 100M feels more sustainable.  But I will take note of your wants.

Maybe I should phrase it as how many tokens should it be likely possible to mine.

cyberspacemonkey
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 30, 2018, 08:37:31 AM

So, the poll posted on Discord was as follows:  (This probably isn't the best place to hold a poll but hey!)

1) Should we stick with the current Fiat style of denomination or move to satoshi style? (0.00 :thumbsup: , 0.00000000 :thumbsdown: ) ?

2) There will be another Blockchain restart, no-one will loose any tokens, does everyone understand this or will I get loads of DM's and Mentions on here (Yes I Understand :thumbsup: , no I need to be banned :smiley:  :thumbsdown: )

You have to think about more than just the perceived value of what you have mined so far when thinking about the next question.  Because just because something is scarce does not automatically add value, there also has to be liquidity.

People HODL'ing really hurts a currency if there is not enough to have movement on exchanges, so wanting only 10MM in circulation will kill everything flat if you want this coin to succeed.  But also you do not want everything to be too numerous either.

With that in mind, would you like the economic target to be (estimated) (all at 0.00 denominations, otherwise far more tokens need to be produced :

1)   100M Veldspar (around 50M Tokens)
2)  500M Veldspar (around 250M Tokens)
3)  1BN Veldspar (you get the point)
4)  10BN, Veldspar
5)  100BN Veldspar
6)  1TN Veldspar
7)  Other(edited)

Oh, i missed this?!

Is the poll still ongoing? I would vote to move to satoshi style denomination and for supply I guess I'm ok with 10BN Veldspar.

Yes it's still open until I feel everyone has had a fair say and put their positions forward.  So is that 10BN + 8dp, would be 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 units. I'd hate to think about the size of the blockchain at that point.  8dp, and 100M feels more sustainable.  But I will take note of your wants.

Maybe I should phrase it as how many tokens should it be likely possible to mine.

Damn I just didn't take the blockchain size into account, what you're proposing is actually a lot more reasonable then.
editfmah (OP)
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 Re: [ANN] [VELD] - Veldspar - A new type of coin, trying to solve different problems August 30, 2018, 08:38:05 AM

So, the poll posted on Discord was as follows:  (This probably isn't the best place to hold a poll but hey!)

1) Should we stick with the current Fiat style of denomination or move to satoshi style? (0.00 :thumbsup: , 0.00000000 :thumbsdown: ) ?

2) There will be another Blockchain restart, no-one will loose any tokens, does everyone understand this or will I get loads of DM's and Mentions on here (Yes I Understand :thumbsup: , no I need to be banned :smiley:  :thumbsdown: )

You have to think about more than just the perceived value of what you have mined so far when thinking about the next question.  Because just because something is scarce does not automatically add value, there also has to be liquidity.

People HODL'ing really hurts a currency if there is not enough to have movement on exchanges, so wanting only 10MM in circulation will kill everything flat if you want this coin to succeed.  But also you do not want everything to be too numerous either.

With that in mind, would you like the economic target to be (estimated) (all at 0.00 denominations, otherwise far more tokens need to be produced :

1)   100M Veldspar (around 50M Tokens)
2)  500M Veldspar (around 250M Tokens)
3)  1BN Veldspar (you get the point)
4)  10BN, Veldspar
5)  100BN Veldspar
6)  1TN Veldspar
7)  Other(edited)

Oh, i missed this?!

Is the poll still ongoing? I would vote to move to satoshi style denomination and for supply I guess I'm ok with 10BN Veldspar.

Yes it's still open until I feel everyone has had a fair say and put their positions forward.  So is that 10BN + 8dp, would be 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 units. I'd hate to think about the size of the blockchain at that point.  8dp, and 100M feels more sustainable.  But I will take note of your wants.

Maybe I should phrase it as how many tokens should it be likely possible to mine.

Damn, I just didn't take the blockchain size into account, what you're proposing is actually a lot more reasonable then.

Hey, i'm up for anything.  I love a challenge!
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