Merit? This got to be a joke.

[Deena]

This isn't a decentralised forum and never was. It's a centralised one with owners and rules in an attempt to keep order, only the limited amount of rules aren't being enforced much and people are bending and breaking them in an which way they can, and as such the forum has become unfit for purpose. Merit was a way to try combat the abuse of account farming but it needs some adjustments and other rules or restrictions need to be put in place.

The problem is that Theymos can't make up his mind whether he wants to run the forum centralized or decentralized (or rather the problem is that he doesn't make it run simply centralized, because the forum technique is not suitable to run it decentralized).

He seems to prefer it decentralized, given subjective implementations like the trust en merit systems. He also expressed his irritation about the centralized cluttering of trust (which apparently isn't the way he wanted it to be). But then he does nothing to bring about a change.

And at the same time there are some rules and some moderators, which is again a move to centralization.

That's why I wrote several times in different places that the forum governance isn't executed from principles. It is patch work with a bit of rules here, a bit of merit there, a patch of trust, a patch of moderating, patch, patch, patch. It's a big mess! And a clutterance of long standing members are taking full profit from the situation. But perhaps that is the way Theymos wants it because perhaps he profits from it too. Who knows what's going on in his mind? [EDIT] This forum really needs some professional updates and some clear, intelligent principles.

I don't really agree with that. Olichargy Oligarchy by its delineation as per wikipedia a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people, may be distinguished by nobility, wealth, family ties, religious or military control. Have you seen people controlling the merit system?

People are controllng the merit system as merit sources. Just as people are controling the trust system through DT membership. I see lots of good posts which I cannot merit because I ran out of merit. I also see plenty of trustworthy members who's trust display won't change when I, and a thousand others, tag them positive because one DT member decided to tag him/her negative. That's olichargic oligarchic rule.

A humble advice, merit is hard, merit ruins life, merit is good and blah blah blah- it is all in your mind.
Whatever your mind has defined, it will be your reality.

But truth and reality simply aren't in the eye of the beholder. They stand independent.

[hilariousetc]

The problem is that Theymos can't make up his mind whether he wants to run the forum centralized or decentralized (or rather the problem is that he doesn't make it run simply centralized, because the forum technique is not suitable to run it decentralized).

He seems to prefer it decentralized, given subjective implementations like the trust en merit systems. He also expressed his irritation about the centralized cluttering of trust (which apparently isn't the way he wanted it to be). But then he does nothing to bring about a change.

And at the same time there are some rules and some moderators, which is again a move to centralization.

The forum is centralised whether anyone likes it or not, and there are rules to try keep some order here. Without them it's anarchy and a total mess. Theymos obviously wants to keep as much freedom as possible without restricting users too much but I don't think we should just use that as an excuse to get away with not doing anything about the various issues here which are numerous. Yes, users should have as much freedom as possible, but users shouldn't be allowed to freely spam their ref link or virus in every post (as they aren't) nor should ICO campaigns be free to pay thousands of users to copy and paste and spam (which is currently tolerated and shouldn't be). That isn't freedom; it's anarchy. Without rules and regulations the greedy and nefarious rise to the top and shit on everyone else along the way ruining it for everybody in the process and without punishments for those who abuse the system people will continue to get away with murder.

That's why I wrote several times in different places that the forum governance isn't executed from principles. It is patch work with a bit of rules here, a bit of merit there, a patch of trust, a patch of moderating, patch, patch, patch. It's a big mess! And a clutterance of long standing members are taking full profit from the situation. But perhaps that is the way Theymos wants it because perhaps he profits from it too. Who knows what's going on in his mind? [EDIT] This forum really needs some professional updates and some clear, intelligent principles.

No system is perfect. I've never seen a perfect feedback system that can't be gamed or exploited (see eBay and Amazon etc). No law system is perfect either. Some people get punished more than others and some can even buy their way out of punishment or imprisonment. Things are never fair for all across the board as much as we want them to be. People will naturally invent whatever conspiracies they want to justify what theymos does or doesn't do, but the least sexiest answer is usually the case. I think theymos is slow to act on many things because I just don't think he has the time. If theymos wanted to monetise this forum more he could do so in multiple ways and I have personally suggested numerous ways he could do so. I've suggested users can pay for more donator ranks, ICOs have to pay a fee to list here, more forum ad slots, and even that if he doesn't trust anyone else to do admin duties then he consider paying himself an appropriate wage and doing forum administration full time because one is badly needed (it's been months since someone has seemingly had their hacked/lost account restored). So far he hasn't done anything I have suggested. In fact, he seems to be even against things like more ad slots completely. Nobody is going to be happy with whatever happens; we're damned if we do damned if we don't. People complain about spam and farming and then a system is introduced such as merit, then people complain about that. We ban or restrict campaigns and then people will cry hysterically about that. It's all about finding a balance, but I agree not much is being done to try find it at the moment and as such it's chaos and disorder, but there are certain things that do desperately need to change or be addressed and ignoring them won't make the issues go away.

[Daboy_Lyle]

Complaining merit will not make you earn merit We should accept the reality that merit will never be gone because on the start of this year merit started. The first 120th days of merit activity has gone. Merit system is the way why we are seeing post with good construction or a meaningful one that's why you need to stop complaining that merit isn't working.

[LogitechMouse]

I am trying to earn a merit only for 5 days. Yes, I wrote 2 big posts (one disappeared) and thought they would be useful. I did not get any merit for them. That's mean I was doing something wrong.

Yeah definitely you are doing wrong. Maybe you have posted your "BIG" post in a mega-thread or maybe the topic that you wrote has been posted and you are just duplicating it. I think you don't need to earn merit. Its better if you just post bounty reports and have some hope that somebody will give merit into it. (zZzZ)

I came here to get advice from experienced users. But I got ridicule from some users, what is quite strange. It might be better not to ask anything. Sorry if I bother someone  

I think the merit is something that is important for me to be honest. People who are whining everyday regarding merit are those users who wants a better rank so that they can get a higher payment. In my observation, mostly Jr. Members are the ones who are complaining here.

The forum is made for learning but nowadays, most people see the forum as a earning place. If you want to learn then merit is not that important to you because you can get information even you are just a newbie. Definitely you posted this because you want to rank up to Member to have higher payments right .

[Branko]

[Helana]

What is annoying is that after almost 9 months of having the merit system around here the child doesn`t want to born. This is the longest pregnancy ever.
To the people complaining: this is just what it is, the system in here. If you don't like it, the internet is full of sites with others systems that maybe suits you more. Try Steemit, and then come back and maybe see how this place is actually pretty free  

[Direwolve735]

Yes absolutely  , it's just impossible to earn with just constructive posts .
Believe me I don't think that's how this system works , people like us are not getting noticed and people who already have merits keep increasing their count ,
No offense to Senior users why don't newbies and Juniors with good quality posts aren't getting what they deserve.
I'm not totally against this system but I think it needs correction.

In fact, merits can only be obtained through constructive and useful posts. The system was invented in order to reduce the amount of spam in the forum, most often coming from users of lower ranks, because they are newcomers who haven`t yet figured out the topic. Perhaps the system doesn`t work exactly as the admin originally intended (we can observe cases of merit-trading, or "encouragement" of alternate accounts), but the participants really began to try harder when writing comments. For me, the merit system performs a very important role - it stimulates and motivates users.

Considering that many people come to the forum for the sake of easy money due to bounty campaigns that don`t follow the quality of their members' posts, more and more spam appears on the forum. This is contrary to the original purpose of creating this forum. After all, participation in signature campaigns is a privilege, and not a self-evident option. To ensure that newbies and juniors don`t create account farms and don`t write an infinite number of useless posts just to fill the quota, the merit system was introduced. Yes, now it is much harder to rise in rank, but those who really want it, try and write constructive posts, learn new information and share them with others, improve their knowledge in the field of crypto currency. I think that only those complain about merit-system whose plans to earn easy money on bounty campaigns have been shaken.

At the forum, everyone gets what they deserve. Recently, a topic was created where the names of the participants were listed, which rose in rank when the merit system was already introduced. In addition, there are newbies and juniors on the forum who receive merits for qualified posts. Merit-system doesn`t leave them all behind the edge. I don`t deny that the merit system needs adjustments (like any innovation after a certain period of time). However, before you offer something new, think about why you didn`t work out with the old one. Try to write useful, reasoned and constructive posts in good English that will be relevant and interesting to the other participants. And I'm sure that your efforts won`t be left without attention.

[Lumi3004]

I find it highly annoying when people complain about merit, and they haven't bothered to spell check the word. It shows they can't have read the stickies. It is also highly annoying when people quote the original post in full and then complain because they don't get any merits.

I agree with Jet Cash, I give a little advice, about merit. One of the important things in creating an effective Member is based on the merit system. The merit system is a Forum policy based on qualifications, competencies.

To get competent and integrity Members, must be in accordance with the merit system principles, as follows:

1. conduct recruitment, selection and priority based on open and fair posting competition;
2. treat Bitcointalk members fairly and equally;
4. maintain high standards for integrity, behavior and concern for the interests of Members in the Forum:
5. manage Forum Members effectively and efficiently;
7. provide opportunities to develop competencies with Forum Members;

So for this it doesn't need to be annoyed anymore if all this is there. Merit must come.

[@oweljayr]

If you see somebody selling merit: make a post in the reputation section and/or report the seller. Both seller and buyer will probably receive -ve from DT and get their accounts ruined (including whatever they invested in buying merit).

Selling merit is prohibited, however this doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, there are a limited number of mods and and admins... They can't monitor each and every thread, let alone monitor off-forum sales.  That's why it's important we report these cheaters

He's not actually saying or pinpointing the ones who are doing it or doing the selling.  These are all just his point of view and I am definitely with him.  There seems to be something going on that only members that has multiple accounts are doing.  Let us be honest with this, there are members who has multiple accounts and they are the ones also giving credits or merits to them selves to upgrade their ranks eventually, rich are getting richer and the poor stays that way.  Posting relevant posts isn't the basis anymore as you could analyze it but veteran members still insists it is the main basis and it supposed to remain that way.  I just hope I will not be banned for saying what is really going on, anyone is entitled to give their side and opinion about matters that matters most.

[Direwolve735]

rich are getting richer and the poor stays that way.  Posting relevant posts isn't the basis anymore as you could analyze it but veteran members still insists it is the main basis and it supposed to remain that way.  I just hope I will not be banned for saying what is really going on, anyone is entitled to give their side and opinion about matters that matters most.

That`s not really what is going on. The system wasn`t designed to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer. Posting relevant posts really is the basis and it will always be. Many participants just don`t want to admit this. Users, who for half a year failed to earn merits, see the output not in greater diligence and zeal, but in the complaint and criticism of the system. Nietzsche called this the morality of slaves, which is manifested through the ressentiment - a sense of hostility to the fact that the person considers the cause of his failures. In order to get out of this state, it is necessary to work hard, try to achieve more, improve. Don`t think that for users with the highest rank it is easy to earn merits. They try for the sake of this, improve their English, work on the style of presenting information. Without diligence nothing will turn out, nothing gets to anyone without effort. Stop looking for flaws in the system, stop blaming those who managed to get merits. Start with yourself, make efforts, try, imrove your language. And you will succeed.

[@oweljayr]

rich are getting richer and the poor stays that way.  Posting relevant posts isn't the basis anymore as you could analyze it but veteran members still insists it is the main basis and it supposed to remain that way.  I just hope I will not be banned for saying what is really going on, anyone is entitled to give their side and opinion about matters that matters most.

That`s not really what is going on. The system wasn`t designed to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer. Posting relevant posts really is the basis and it will always be. Many participants just don`t want to admit this. Users, who for half a year failed to earn merits, see the output not in greater diligence and zeal, but in the complaint and criticism of the system. Nietzsche called this the morality of slaves, which is manifested through the ressentiment - a sense of hostility to the fact that the person considers the cause of his failures. In order to get out of this state, it is necessary to work hard, try to achieve more, improve. Don`t think that for users with the highest rank it is easy to earn merits. They try for the sake of this, improve their English, work on the style of presenting information. Without diligence nothing will turn out, nothing gets to anyone without effort. Stop looking for flaws in the system, stop blaming those who managed to get merits. Start with yourself, make efforts, try, imrove your language. And you will succeed.

Improve my language?  English is my official language here in our country and we considered it also as our mother language.  I am not blaming those who managed to get their merits and I don't even feel any envy.  I was just saying my thoughts and opinion regarding the subject.  Easy for you to say all these things you have said because you are a seniority member.  But, you made a big point regarding that and better for us to take it as a complement for us to strive more and harder.

[hilariousetc]

He's not actually saying or pinpointing the ones who are doing it or doing the selling.  These are all just his point of view and I am definitely with him.  There seems to be something going on that only members that has multiple accounts are doing.  Let us be honest with this, there are members who has multiple accounts and they are the ones also giving credits or merits to them selves to upgrade their ranks eventually, rich are getting richer and the poor stays that way.  Posting relevant posts isn't the basis anymore as you could analyze it but veteran members still insists it is the main basis and it supposed to remain that way.  I just hope I will not be banned for saying what is really going on, anyone is entitled to give their side and opinion about matters that matters most.

I'm getting sick of hearing this bullshit excuse that merit makes the rich get richer. Do you know the only type of people who make this claim? The ones who are 100% only here to earn from posting. Ranks or merit do not effect your ability to post here, but they certainly effect your ability to maximise earnings via signature campaigns and this is what you're upset about. This forum was not created as a place to earn for posting; it was a place to discuss bitcoin but you're not interested in that if you couldn't get paid for it and that is the whole reason why the merit system was introduced in the first place.

15 out of your first 20 posts here are in threads that are in the trashcan. The rest are mostly all just generic one/two liners made only for payment. Merit isn't a system to keep the poor poor or the rich rich, it's to stop people like you signing up with 20 accounts per family member just to post a hollow one or two liner over each of their accounts and ranking up over time in the process. Now doing this will get you nowhere without contributing substantially and getting merits. In fact, I don't think the merit system goes far enough. I think to become a Junior Member you should have to earn something between 1-10 merits and that would really sort the wheat from the chaff (or the rich from the poor going by your logic) because people like you wouldn't be able to earn anything without getting merit and that is a good thing and would do wonders for this forum. This board is not a place to earn money for posting rubbish and it owes you nothing. We've been too lax for far too long and it has now been swamped by shitposters just looking to earn and they have ruined the forum in the process. You have just chosen to come here to earn and now you find that isn't as easy as whoever told you it was. Now you feel like you've had money swiped from your hand. You haven't. Make great contributions here and one day you will become of those people who you think are the 'wealthy elite'.

Improve my language?  English is my official language here in our country and we considered it also as our mother language.  I am not blaming those who managed to get their merits and I don't even feel any envy.  I was just saying my thoughts and opinion regarding the subject.  Easy for you to say all these things you have said because you are a seniority member.  But, you made a big point regarding that and better for us to take it as a complement for us to strive more and harder.

English might be an official language of the Philippines but I doubt it's your first language.

[Kopyleft]

I believe the system was introduced to maintain high quality posts in the forum, it definitely has serious short comings, but not worth crying about, especially when you don't have an alternative

[Direwolve735]

I think to become a Junior Member you should have to earn something between 1-10 merits and that would really sort the wheat from the chaff (or the rich from the poor going by your logic) because people like you wouldn't be able to earn anything without getting merit and that is a good thing and would do wonders for this forum.

I believe that it`s necessary not only to establish the certain number of merits in order to become Juniour Member, but also to remove the possibility of putting on the signature for Newbies. Recently, I began to notice that there are more and more bounty campaigns that are recruiting newcomers for advertising their product. Newbies receive a penny, but for those who create an account farm, this isn`t a problem. If you have 20 accounts, then your petty incomes increase at times. Such offers from the bounty campaigns stimulate spam and shitposting.

[@oweljayr]

He's not actually saying or pinpointing the ones who are doing it or doing the selling.  These are all just his point of view and I am definitely with him.  There seems to be something going on that only members that has multiple accounts are doing.  Let us be honest with this, there are members who has multiple accounts and they are the ones also giving credits or merits to them selves to upgrade their ranks eventually, rich are getting richer and the poor stays that way.  Posting relevant posts isn't the basis anymore as you could analyze it but veteran members still insists it is the main basis and it supposed to remain that way.  I just hope I will not be banned for saying what is really going on, anyone is entitled to give their side and opinion about matters that matters most.

I'm getting sick of hearing this bullshit excise that merit makes the rich get richer. Do you know the only type of people who make this claim? The ones who are 100% only here to earn from posting. Ranks or merit do not effect your ability to post here, but they certainly effect your ability to maximise earnings via signature campaigns and this is what you're upset about. This forum was not created as a place to earn for posting; it was a place to discuss bitcoin but you're not interested in that if you couldn't get paid for it and that is the whole reason why the merit system was introduced in the first place.

15 out of your first 20 posts here are in threads that are in the trashcan. The rest are mostly all just generic one/two liners made only for payment. Merit isn't a system to keep the poor poor or the rich rich, it's to stop people like you signing up with 20 accounts per family member just to post a hollow one or two liner over each of their accounts and ranking up over time in the process. Now doing this will get you nowhere without contributing substantially and getting merits. In fact, I don't think the merit system goes far enough. I think to become a Junior Member you should have to earn something between 1-10 merits and that would really sort the wheat from the chaff (or the rich from the poor going by your logic) because people like you wouldn't be able to earn anything without getting merit and that is a good thing and would do wonders for this forum. This board is not a place to earn money for posting rubbish and it owes you nothing. We've been too lax for far too long and it has now been swamped by shitposters just looking to earn and they have ruined the forum in the process. You have just chosen to come here to earn and now you find that isn't as easy as whoever told you it was. Now you feel like you've had money swiped from your hand. You haven't. Make great contributions here and one day you will become of those people who you think are the 'wealthy elite'.

Improve my language?  English is my official language here in our country and we considered it also as our mother language.  I am not blaming those who managed to get their merits and I don't even feel any envy.  I was just saying my thoughts and opinion regarding the subject.  Easy for you to say all these things you have said because you are a seniority member.  But, you made a big point regarding that and better for us to take it as a complement for us to strive more and harder.

English might be an official language of the Philippines but I doubt it's your first language.

Seems that I made you upset a lot.  Come on, this is just my opinion and you literally under estimated me.  Sorry for my actions if you need my apology.  I am just a Filipino here trying to interact with you guys and nothing's personal.  You guys supposed to be our mentor and not the one who would humiliate lower ranks like me.  Again, it is my opinion only and I appreciate every thing higher ranking member's comments about it.  By the way, I don't really do this for a living or to earn as you said and I am not after for any merits for I am not as good as you are to get it.  This is going to be my last comment for this thread.

[rolleth.io]

I think to become a Junior Member you should have to earn something between 1-10 merits and that would really sort the wheat from the chaff (or the rich from the poor going by your logic) because people like you wouldn't be able to earn anything without getting merit and that is a good thing and would do wonders for this forum.

I believe that it`s necessary not only to establish the certain number of merits in order to become Juniour Member, but also to remove the possibility of putting on the signature for Newbies. Recently, I began to notice that there are more and more bounty campaigns that are recruiting newcomers for advertising their product. Newbies receive a penny, but for those who create an account farm, this isn`t a problem. If you have 20 accounts, then your petty incomes increase at times. Such offers from the bounty campaigns stimulate spam and shitposting.

This dispute make me think that the system is not so good now, and we see it. I think that there are should be a few changes that should increase the situation about bounties and other promo. We see a lot of advertising everywhere, and i think that this forum should represent another site of human thoughts about crypto - THEIR REAL THOUGHTS. So we have to add another rules for every kind of group - for business, newbies, moderators, etc.

[Lumi3004]

He's not actually saying or pinpointing the ones who are doing it or doing the selling.  These are all just his point of view and I am definitely with him.  There seems to be something going on that only members that has multiple accounts are doing.  Let us be honest with this, there are members who has multiple accounts and they are the ones also giving credits or merits to them selves to upgrade their ranks eventually, rich are getting richer and the poor stays that way.  Posting relevant posts isn't the basis anymore as you could analyze it but veteran members still insists it is the main basis and it supposed to remain that way.  I just hope I will not be banned for saying what is really going on, anyone is entitled to give their side and opinion about matters that matters most.

I'm getting sick of hearing this bullshit excise that merit makes the rich get richer. Do you know the only type of people who make this claim? The ones who are 100% only here to earn from posting. Ranks or merit do not effect your ability to post here, but they certainly effect your ability to maximise earnings via signature campaigns and this is what you're upset about. This forum was not created as a place to earn for posting; it was a place to discuss bitcoin but you're not interested in that if you couldn't get paid for it and that is the whole reason why the merit system was introduced in the first place.

15 out of your first 20 posts here are in threads that are in the trashcan. The rest are mostly all just generic one/two liners made only for payment. Merit isn't a system to keep the poor poor or the rich rich, it's to stop people like you signing up with 20 accounts per family member just to post a hollow one or two liner over each of their accounts and ranking up over time in the process. Now doing this will get you nowhere without contributing substantially and getting merits. In fact, I don't think the merit system goes far enough. I think to become a Junior Member you should have to earn something between 1-10 merits and that would really sort the wheat from the chaff (or the rich from the poor going by your logic) because people like you wouldn't be able to earn anything without getting merit and that is a good thing and would do wonders for this forum. This board is not a place to earn money for posting rubbish and it owes you nothing. We've been too lax for far too long and it has now been swamped by shitposters just looking to earn and they have ruined the forum in the process. You have just chosen to come here to earn and now you find that isn't as easy as whoever told you it was. Now you feel like you've had money swiped from your hand. You haven't. Make great contributions here and one day you will become of those people who you think are the 'wealthy elite'.

Improve my language?  English is my official language here in our country and we considered it also as our mother language.  I am not blaming those who managed to get their merits and I don't even feel any envy.  I was just saying my thoughts and opinion regarding the subject.  Easy for you to say all these things you have said because you are a seniority member.  But, you made a big point regarding that and better for us to take it as a complement for us to strive more and harder.

English might be an official language of the Philippines but I doubt it's your first language.

Before I apologize I see here a little tense / Disputes, I do not take sides here and there, I as a member want to give a little what I know, new words for the future and so on ... Peace is beautiful.

[1]. You must be able to balance physical, brain and heart. Physically, you need to work hard to get income that will be used to meet daily needs. Then, the results of working hard will be maximized if you also apply the principle of working smart. You will do various kinds of techniques to achieve extraordinary achievements. Then, in order to get peace and peace of mind, you must work with sincerity. Whatever difficulties you face, try to sincerely accept them. In fact, when the results you get are not as expected, don't be sad. Accept sincerely while continuing to struggle to get what you want to get passionately.

[2]. Do not let us fall asleep to fulfill worldly wealth that is only temporary, until we forget our real duty in this world that is to collect supplies to go to the eternal afterlife. So protect yourself both with matter and spiritually, and share that wealth with those who need it more.

[3]. Often, there are people who don't like us without knowing what causes them. Never mind, you don't need to think seriously. Don't reply to that hatred with hatred too. Better, be kind to him because good will erase various forms of crime including hatred. Suppose that he is a potential friend who has not yet finished. When your kindness can melt his heart, hatred within him will turn into a love for a great friend.

[farelada33]

I find it highly annoying when people complain about merit, and they haven't bothered to spell check the word. It shows they can't have read the stickies. It is also highly annoying when people quote the original post in full and then complain because they don't get any merits.

Yes, I agree with your opinion, and they also take articles that are not theirs, and they also post them on this forum without the owner's knowledge, sometimes I am more angry to see those who like to complain because their account is banned, even though this is where they were tested for see the results of their posts, do they post have quality.