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Author Topic: NO PROOF MtGox is insolvent - Document possibly a Hoax? - STOP THE FUD!  (Read 7119 times)
ethought (OP)
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February 25, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
 #1

It seems like everyone is running round like like lunatics declaring MtGox is insolvent and dead without any solid proof. I am not saying this may not the case but lets at least wait for a solid bit of evidence - either an announcement from MtGox or proof that the document going around claiming MtGox lost 700,000+ BTC is real. Otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot. The media is and will have a field day on these claims and if later they prove to be false the short term damage will have already been done.

The document in question does not look at all professional to me and no one really seems to know where it really came from. What if it was just created by someone wanting cheap bitcoin? I would say that they have done an exceptional job of spreading FUD if that was the case.

Its amazing how many forum members come out of the woodwork claiming this is the end of Bitcoin, announcing class action lawsuits against MtGox, sending MK death threats etc. None of this is helping the situation.

STOP the FUD.

In my opinion Bitcoin is here to stay with or without MtGox!! Lets just get on with it.
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February 25, 2014, 12:09:36 PM
 #2

judging by mtgox's latest actions they are pointing to insolvency

i believe they have been insolvent since their usd cash withdrawl problems

mark karpeles probally just wanted to buy time and blame transaction malleability

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#Darren
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February 25, 2014, 12:09:42 PM
 #3

https://www.mtgox.com/


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repentance
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February 25, 2014, 12:12:04 PM
 #4

MtGox refused to even comment when asked by Wired about the allegations.  They're doing absolutely nothing to convey the actual truth to the public, so at this point it's their own damned fault if people believe the rumours.  They've had every opportunity to deny the various rumours which have sprung up over the last few day and consistently refused to state that they are solvent. 

The onus is pretty much on them to prove their solvency now.  Once you stop paying people what you owe them without any agreement in place about when they will be paid, the presumption of insolvency applies by default.  It's the lack of information from MtGox itself which is destroying MtGox.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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February 25, 2014, 12:14:15 PM
 #5

I like their website... " put announce for mtgox acq here  "  lol
ethought (OP)
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February 25, 2014, 12:17:56 PM
 #6

MtGox refused to even comment when asked by Wired about the allegations.  They're doing absolutely nothing to convey the actual truth to the public, so at this point it's their own damned fault if people believe the rumours.  They've had every opportunity to deny the various rumours which have sprung up over the last few day and consistently refused to state that they are solvent.

Yes, it's hard to imagine them having dealt with this in a worse way.

And, while they might refuse to say they are solvent they have not (as yet) stated they are insolvent either.

Companies do sometimes go into lock down when they are about to either file for bankruptcy or announce some really good news. Right now I wouldn't be betting on either option.
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February 25, 2014, 12:21:15 PM
 #7

Is there any concrete evidence of mt gox being insolvent anywhere? so these guys havent stated a thing the last 2 days, the only action we have seen is them halting trading and the website going down.
And we are all just speculating.

 Is Mark Karpeles really this dumb, does anyone really know him. \
#Darren
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February 25, 2014, 12:23:23 PM
 #8

Is there any concrete evidence of mt gox being insolvent anywhere? so these guys havent stated a thing the last 2 days, the only action we have seen is them halting trading and the website going down.
And we are all just speculating.

 Is Mark Karpeles really this dumb, does anyone really know him. \


Better question, are people really this dumb to not see the obvious?


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February 25, 2014, 12:27:57 PM
 #9


 Is Mark Karpeles really this dumb, does anyone really know him. \


Many big names who previously supported MtGox have very publicly distanced themselves from Mark today.  They probably know him far better than any ordinary users.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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February 25, 2014, 12:39:26 PM
 #10

Is there any concrete evidence of mt gox being insolvent anywhere? so these guys havent stated a thing the last 2 days, the only action we have seen is them halting trading and the website going down.
And we are all just speculating.

 Is Mark Karpeles really this dumb, does anyone really know him. \


Better question, are people really this dumb to not see the obvious?
Yes they are. We have warned them multiple times before.

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ethought (OP)
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February 25, 2014, 12:47:03 PM
 #11


 Is Mark Karpeles really this dumb, does anyone really know him. \


Many big names who previously supported MtGox have very publicly distanced themselves from Mark today.  They probably know him far better than any ordinary users.

I agree, that is not encouraging.

Still not proof though.
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February 25, 2014, 12:48:03 PM
 #12

Many big names who previously supported MtGox have very publicly distanced themselves from Mark today.  They probably know him far better than any ordinary users.

Ironic contrast with your own sig. In bitcoin you want 6 confirmations, but for general panic we apparently need none.  The big news is, there is no news, just a blank page where mtgox used to be, with a weird "acq" announcement placeholder in the html-source.

Seeing how bitcoin is in a far better position than November last year and loads of encouraging news has been coming out, I'm starting to believe that people just want bitcoin-prices to go down because regardless. People seem to be panicking just so they can panic. Even if the rumored documents were real(doubtful to say the least), this would still mean it's old news and has nothing to do with the current bitcoin. I get that everyone likes to panic, but this stuff seems to have happened years ago, you've missed the panic window, you're too late.
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February 25, 2014, 12:50:21 PM
 #13

Mt.Gox support site has been deleted ... and the subdomain is now available for anyone to take !??!

Quote
No help desk at support.mtgox.com

There is no help desk configured at this address. This means that the address is available and that you can claim it at http://www.zendesk.com/signup/

T.Stuart
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February 25, 2014, 01:00:40 PM
 #14

It seems like everyone is running round like like lunatics declaring MtGox is insolvent and dead without any solid proof. I am not saying this may not the case but lets at least wait for a solid bit of evidence - either an announcement from MtGox or proof that the document going around claiming MtGox lost 700,000+ BTC is real. Otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot. The media is and will have a field day on these claims and if later they prove to be false the short term damage will have already been done.

The document in question does not look at all professional to me and no one really seems to know where it really came from. What if it was just created by someone wanting cheap bitcoin? I would say that they have done an exceptional job of spreading FUD if that was the case.

Its amazing how many forum members come out of the woodwork claiming this is the end of Bitcoin, announcing class action lawsuits against MtGox, sending MK death threats etc. None of this is helping the situation.

STOP the FUD.

In my opinion Bitcoin is here to stay with or without MtGox!! Lets just get on with it.


The sad thing is, I get the feeling we are not going to get proper closure. This situation will just continue and the proof will make itself obvious through the build up of circumstantial evidence. The shittiest way for Gox customers (including silly old me) to learn the truth.

                                                                               
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February 25, 2014, 01:45:35 PM
 #15

1. Joint statement by blockchain.info and other exchanges pretty much makes it crystal clear they are insolvent. In fact the original statement even used the word "insolvent" in the title and body of the statement (they have since removed such wording).

2. The source code on the Mt. Gox website says "put announce for mtgox acq here" which indicates a recent acquisition of the business, implying that they have been bought out and are going to continue operation of the business under different owners and management.

3. There is very solid evidence that gox.com was just acquired by Mt. Gox and is going to be used for their upcoming rebranding just like the document claims. Do a whois and gox.com and see: http://www.domaininvesting.com/andy-booth-sells-gox-com/

The document is clearly titled as a draft and may have been written by someone who doesn't speak English as their first language, so it's not a good idea to dismiss it on those grounds alone. I do agree that it's quite suspicious but everything written in the document seems to be unfolding exactly as predicted. I wouldn't fully trust the numbers in the document because it may have been written to cause a panic, but who ever wrote it clearly has an inside connection to Mt. Gox. Based on the joint statement and the actual Mt. Gox website being down I would say that the "proof" for Mt. Gox being insolvent is extremely high, hence the apparent acquisition.

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February 25, 2014, 01:50:21 PM
 #16

How do we know that mtgox has not been hacked in order to create chaos?
ethought (OP)
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February 25, 2014, 01:59:48 PM
 #17

1. Joint statement by blockchain.info and other exchanges pretty much makes it crystal clear they are insolvent. In fact the original statement even used the word "insolvent" in the title and body of the statement (they have since removed such wording).

The very fact that they removed the word insolvent indicates they have no solid evidence that they are insolvent either.

2. The source code on the Mt. Gox website says "put announce for mtgox acq here" which indicates a recent acquisition of the business, implying that they are going to continue operation of the business under different owners and management.

That, to me, does not automatically imply they are insolvent. Companies get acquired all the time while still solvent.

3. There is very solid evidence that gox.com was just acquired by Mt. Gox and is going to be used for their upcoming rebranding just like the document claims. Do a whois and gox.com and see: http://www.domaininvesting.com/andy-booth-sells-gox-com/

Not disputing that but buying a new domain and re-branding also does not tell us anything other than the fact they are re-branding.

The document is clearly titled as a draft and may have been written by someone who doesn't speak English as their first language, so it's not a good idea to dismiss it on those grounds alone. I do agree that it's quite suspicious but everything written in the document seems to be unfolding exactly as predicted. I wouldn't fully trust the numbers in the document because it may have been written to cause a panic, but who ever wrote it clearly has an inside connection to Mt. Gox. Based on the joint statement and the actual Mt. Gox website being down I would say that the "proof" for Mt. Gox being insolvent is extremely high, hence the apparent acquisition.

Point taken, did not realise it was marked as a draft.

However, surely the document is trustworthy or it is not. I don't see how it could be a legitimate document with numbers that cannot be trusted.
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February 25, 2014, 02:02:36 PM
 #18

The alleged internal mtgox document reads very real to me.  If it's a hoax, they did a great job (only really weird part was the picture of Mark under Part 2 - why have it at all and on some weird letter form? - an internal memo would just say what the letter would entail?)

The document discusses many things I and others on here believed to be the case and possible solutions:

1.  Acknowledges that the gox fiasco is not just about gox but that it will affect bitcoin's adoption going forward in a massive way.  The key is making the bitcoin customers whole for the sake of bitcoin itself.

2.  Requires Mark to resign.

3.  Someone (or a group of people) PURCHASE gox after factoring liabilities (but didn't realize the liabilities were so enormous).  It is a valuable exchange and I think most people would trust Gox if they knew it was being run by completely new management.  Someone with a high profile and trust must take over gox (like Andreas or someone similar), even if they don't want to right now.  I believe customers will stay if there is proof of bitcoins to back all withdrawals - not sure if that is possible though (see #4)

4.  PART OF MAKING GOX CUSTOMERS WHOLE IS FOR CERTAIN WHALES TO GIVE (OR LOAN WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT SOME OR ALL LOANED BITCOIN MAY BE LOST) SOME OF THEIR MASSIVE BITCOIN HOLDINGS TO GOX AFTER MARK IS GONE WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS ONLY FOR MAKING CUSTOMERS WHOLE, ALL OF WHICH IS FOR THE CAUSE OF BITCOIN.  (again, didn't realize the number of bitcoins short was so huge, and was thinking about very early adopters who may possibly own massive amounts of bitcoin).

Cannot emphasize enough how huge this is for bitcoin adoption going forward.  Those who simply want gox to die are missing the big picture.  If gox customers are ultimately cheated, there will be a sell-off, but it probably won't be that big as some of this is already factored in.  Many in the public as well as companies, hell even the media, were starting to talk about bitcoin in a positive way.  They will turn and run in a heartbeat - they haven't yet bc technically no one has yet been cheated - they and we are all waiting to see what happens.  All the "I told you bitcoin was dangerous (or a fraud)" will be out in full force.  Media will be brutal and gov regulation will come down like a hammer.  Bitcoin's adoption will stop cold in its tracks, and the public, which was always worried about security, will say "no thanks, I don't need this product that badly"  and bitcoin will unfortunately grind down slowly to nothing for many many years to come

 
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February 25, 2014, 02:06:51 PM
 #19

The document may be real but I sure don't believe the figures in it. Where did all the fiat go? Did they spend it to buy BTC at $1,000 just to lose the BTC later?

They're incompetent but were they really that incompetent? If they claim something like this it smells like deliberate fraud.
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February 25, 2014, 02:09:50 PM
 #20


Cannot emphasize enough how huge this is for bitcoin adoption going forward.  Those who simply want gox to die are missing the big picture.  If gox customers are ultimately cheated, there will be a sell-off, but it probably won't be that big as some of this is already factored in.  Many in the public as well as companies, hell even the media, were starting to talk about bitcoin in a positive way.  They will turn and run in a heartbeat - they haven't yet bc technically no one has yet been cheated - they and we are all waiting to see what happens.  All the "I told you bitcoin was dangerous (or a fraud)" will be out in full force.  Media will be brutal and gov regulation will come down like a hammer.  Bitcoin's adoption will stop cold in its tracks, and the public, which was always worried about security, will say "no thanks, I don't need this product that badly"  and bitcoin will unfortunately grind down slowly to nothing for many many years to come


I totally agree with you IF this is all true.

The point I am making is I think we are already doing a lot of the damage described above even if it all turns out to not be true. The journalists are already feverishly writing the "I told you so" articles as we speak, I am sure.


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