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Author Topic: I am very confused.  (Read 9342 times)
allten
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October 18, 2011, 04:11:57 AM
 #21

What is confusing is that people are declaring it dead because it can't maintain a constant price after an increase over 1000 times? I really don't understand this. Somebody please tell me how Bitcoin is suffering right now? From what I am seeing it has had great progress. I don't see anything to complain about.
The volatility makes it less useful as a medium of exchange. If you accept 100 bitcoins in exchange for some hardware and the next day those 100 bitcoins are worth 15% less, you may wind up taking a loss on the transaction. This matters because you typically can't pay your employees, pay your utility bills, pay your rent, or pay your suppliers in bitcoins.

Otherwise, the price of a bitcoin measures a whole bunch of things mixed together. One of the things it measures is the collective opinion of the long-term viability of bitcoins as a medium of exchange. But that's mixed in with so many other factors that you really draw too many conclusions.

I think a lot of people just assume that a high price is good and a low price is bad without really thinking too much about it. They confuse the price of a bitcoin with things like the price of a company's stock.

That's a good point. I don't think stable prices will ever be Bitcoin's strong point; however, this weakness is completly offset with its ease to take it to market and sell just as quick as you receive it. So, if I receive payment in bitcoin and choose to wait before selling. That loss is my fault and not neccessarily bitcoin as a currency.
The free market is already providing even better solutions than this. MtGox has a merchant service where you can receive payment in bitcoins that are immediatly converted to USD - there's no loss.

In my opionion, People tagging Bitcoin as dead comes from the continued decline in bitcoin prices.
For me, bitcoin prices comming back to reality is a huge win for Bitcoin.
It went way past its fundamental value. Now the market is more mature and you can short. hopefully, such a tragedy of super fast rising prices will never happen again.
Every one sees the failing pricess as the disease, but no one was complaining when prices were sky rocketing.
What goes up irrationally must come back down and speculators are punished.
Can't be too harsh though, I've lost a couple grand, but that was my expensive learning experience and I hold no anomosity towards this brilliant technology.

On second thought, maybe so many are tagging it as dead because they are too prideful to reconize they screwed up.
I know it took me a while.
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October 18, 2011, 04:20:57 AM
 #22


JoelKatz, Evorhees, and Gavin,

You got mad Bitcoin smarts. There are a bunch of rtards on this forum (anyone reading this is of course wicked brilliant, and beautiful if you are a lady, which you aren't...) so I'm glad to hear your well thought out and level-headed responses.

Aren't "THE SKY IS FALLING!" people annoying the crap out of you?

Ladies ladies, one at a time.
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October 18, 2011, 04:24:59 AM
 #23

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter for what could be a massively influential idea, then you should probably come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system.
This pretty well sums it up.  Folks, let's not forget that we're trying to do something which has never been done before.  Is Bitcoin perfect in its present incarnation?  No, but I haven't seen anyone come forward with any other solution which maintains all of Bitcoin's positive attributes while addressing its major shortcomings (particularly the unstable exchange rate).  I'm sorry if some of you have lost real money in the past few months, but perhaps now is a good time to re-emphasize the "beta" nature of the Bitcoin software and ecosystem.

"A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history." --Gandhi
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October 18, 2011, 04:33:48 AM
 #24

Like i said, convince me as a merchant to use your payment system while all my business expenses are in fiat currency.

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter for what could be a massively influential idea, then you should probably come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system.


As a business owner, what makes me excited is increasing profits. You have to think from my point of view if you want me to use your system. I'm not some geek engineer whos excited by using a coolest tech. This is why visionary makes innovations succeed.

I like your chicken and egg thinking tho.

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October 18, 2011, 04:50:16 AM
 #25

This is the key, I've been doing everything I can to urge other leftist ideologues to adopt Bitcoin to create an egalitarian economy, it will take a few years to catch on but the ability of Bitcoin to ease redistribution of wealth will make it the inevitable choice once people tire of trying to work inside the same old broken system.

I have to laugh at the irony of this post. I'm not laughing at you Rarity. But I'm laughing with... well, I guess with all the folks who started this forum!

Bitcoin is the crypto-anarchist libertarian's wet dream of a currency. Its core premise is that there is no way for anyone to force redistribution of wealth. There is nothing particularly egalitarian about bitcoin. Sure the leftist ideologues, libertarians, and tea party folks are all trying to pull down the current system.

However, everyone is trying to pull it down from opposing directions. It is all very self defeating and amusing to watch.
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October 18, 2011, 05:10:45 AM
 #26

This is the key, I've been doing everything I can to urge other leftist ideologues to adopt Bitcoin to create an egalitarian economy, it will take a few years to catch on but the ability of Bitcoin to ease redistribution of wealth will make it the inevitable choice once people tire of trying to work inside the same old broken system.

I have to laugh at the irony of this post. I'm not laughing at you Rarity. But I'm laughing with... well, I guess with all the folks who started this forum!

Bitcoin is the crypto-anarchist libertarian's wet dream of a currency. Its core premise is that there is no way for anyone to force redistribution of wealth. There is nothing particularly egalitarian about bitcoin. Sure the leftist ideologues, libertarians, and tea party folks are all trying to pull down the current system.

However, everyone is trying to pull it down from opposing directions. It is all very self defeating and amusing to watch.


I've actually already debated this extensively in other threads.  In the primal state bitcoin is not good for redistribution, but once you have a government that identifies the users by address it is perfect for it because of the transaction log.  I know you would have some doubts of that but I don't feel like running through the debate I just had in the other thread, I'll link you if you are interested.

The bottom line is Bitcoin allows you to take the means of currency production out of the hands of corrupt central banks and the corporations who rule them and gives it to the people.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 18, 2011, 06:07:54 AM
 #27

but once you have a government that identifies the users by address it is perfect for it because of the transaction log.  

So are you saying you are a fan of Bitcoin because of its *lack* of anonymity?

The bottom line is Bitcoin allows you to take the means of currency production out of the hands of corrupt central banks and the corporations who rule them and gives it to the people.

Means of currency production? You are well aware of the fact that Bitcoin doesn't have a means of currency production right? It just slowly allocates the existing 21 million coins. By the time the government takes notice and reverse engineers who holds each address (say 5 years) 75% of bitcoins will already be in the hands of the bitcoin rich. How are "the people" going to produce more or redistribute existing wealth from the bitcoin rich?

I guess a link might be in order. Smiley
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October 18, 2011, 06:12:01 AM
 #28

Precisely because of the lack of anonymity compared to cash, yes.  There is no reason to reverse engineer out all the addresses, the government simply assigns an address to each citizen and these addresses are the only legal means of sending or receiving the coins.  Anything outside the whitelist is considered illegal by default.  This system does not interfere with the actual network at all, it just defines how the network is legally used in a country.

Debated it more in depth here:  http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47916.60

By means of currency production with the people I mean as opposed to the out of control printing of wealth done by central banks and handed off to the wealthy in the form of bailouts and favorable regulation.  With Bitcoin the government can't create money out of thin air, it is mined by the people and all transactions are public and easily monitored.  There will be no more need for something like campaign finance reform, for example, when every donation to a campaign is recorded and mad publicly available for the voters.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
evoorhees
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October 18, 2011, 06:15:06 AM
 #29


The bottom line is Bitcoin allows you to take the means of currency production out of the hands of corrupt central banks and the corporations who rule them and gives it to the people.

Maybe someday you'll realize that the entire purpose of the central bank's inflationary activities is precisely for wealth redistribution - both from the rich to the poor (to buy votes from government spending programs) and from the poor to the rich (via inflation). In both cases, the government is strengthened at the expense of individual freedom.

How about we stop "redistributing" property justly acquired by humans. It's a lesson mankind is unfortunately taking thousands of years to learn - don't steal from or harm people, and society will be good.

It's incredible how "socialists" are always so eager to be charitable with other peoples' money, while typing their nonsensical tyranny on computers which could surely be donated to more needy children in 3rd world countries...
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October 18, 2011, 06:19:19 AM
 #30

Quote
Maybe someday you'll realize that the entire purpose of the central bank's inflationary activities is precisely for wealth redistribution - both from the rich to the poor (to buy votes from government spending programs) and from the poor to the rich (via inflation). In both cases, the government is strengthened at the expense of individual freedom.

Oh please, the 400 richest people in America hold more wealth than the bottom half of the population combined.  There is only one direction in which corrupt central banking distributes money, and that is why it must be destroyed.

Quote
It's incredible how "socialists" are always so eager to be charitable with other peoples' money, while typing their nonsensical tyranny on computers which could surely be donated to more needy children in 3rd world countries...

It is for those people I use my voice to try and save us all from the tyranny of the rich.  When the job is done, I'll be glad to pass along my rig.  For now, I'll concentrate on supporting policy that will give them potable water, food to eat, education, electricity, roads, and healthcare.  

I grew up wealthy and have done very well for myself in my own career, I'll be happy to see my money be taxed at a higher rate to support those in need.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 18, 2011, 06:28:49 AM
 #31

I grew up wealthy and have done very well for myself in my own career, I'll be happy to see my money be taxed at a higher rate to support those in need.

Seek professional help.

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October 18, 2011, 06:30:14 AM
 #32

Oh please, the 400 richest people in America hold more wealth than the bottom half of the population combined.  There is only one direction in which corrupt central banking distributes money, and that is why it must be destroyed.

I don't know, man. 99% of the so-called "poor" have refrigerators these days. Even Czar Nicholas II didn't have one of those. Game. Set. Match.

If there's one thing I've learned from Bitcoin libertarians, it's that true freedom mainly involves working 18 hours a day for a dollar an hour and living in a tin-roofed shack (look Ma, no building regulations!).
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October 18, 2011, 06:33:05 AM
 #33

I grew up wealthy and have done very well for myself in my own career, I'll be happy to see my money be taxed at a higher rate to support those in need.

Seek professional help.

Tell it to Warren Buffet too, or George Soros, or Mark Cuban.  People can be wealthy without being selfish.


http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-cuban-tax-the-hell-out-of-wall-street-and-give-it-to-main-street-and-other-advice-for-the-protesters-2011-10

Quote
MARK CUBAN: 'Tax The Hell Out Of Wall Street And Give It To Main Street'

"Every layoff in the name of more earnings per share puts a stress on the economy, on the federal, state and local governments which is in turn paid for through taxes or assumption of government debt"


"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 18, 2011, 06:34:54 AM
 #34

Precisely because of the lack of anonymity compared to cash, yes.

Good for you then. Have fun here!

For reference I believe that only ideas of folly start with, "First everyone had to do (X) exactly as I say, then (Y) can never happen and the world will be a better place!"

If your idea is a good one, start with 100,000 people and completely open accounting. If it makes these 100,000 people's lives genuinely better, everyone else will notice and come over willingly.

If the first 100,000 fails to benefit from the wisdom of your idea. Well, that's the definition of being wrong.
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October 18, 2011, 06:37:21 AM
 #35

^ The Democratic process will be the source of this change as people tire of our long running and long failed current experiment.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 18, 2011, 06:45:46 AM
 #36

^ The Democratic process will be the source of this change as people tire of our long running and long failed current experiment.

Because a "democratic process" decides, (first everyone must do (X) then (Y) will happen) doesn't make the idea any less folly. Ken Burns has a really good documentary about Prohibition out at the moment.

That scourge was much worse than the current banking scourge. The solution was successfully tested locally among the willing. It was imposed on everyone popularly with the best of intentions. And yes, it turned out to be complete folly.
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October 18, 2011, 06:59:02 AM
 #37

Good or bad, it's the will of the people.  It has legalized slavery and it has outlawed it.  It is a far better system than rulership by corrupt unelected bankers.  In the case of switching to a Bitcoin economy, it would most certainly be a good.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 18, 2011, 07:07:51 AM
 #38

Oh please, the 400 richest people in America hold more wealth than the bottom half of the population combined.  There is only one direction in which corrupt central banking distributes money, and that is why it must be destroyed.

I don't know, man. 99% of the so-called "poor" have refrigerators these days. Even Czar Nicholas II didn't have one of those. Game. Set. Match.

If there's one thing I've learned from Bitcoin libertarians, it's that true freedom mainly involves working 18 hours a day for a dollar an hour and living in a tin-roofed shack (look Ma, no building regulations!).

The greatest freedom that America affords you is the freedom to work two dangerous jobs to pay for the medical bills you incurred from working two dangerous times.


If you are really upset about this, next time pick to be born to a family of investment bankers.
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October 18, 2011, 07:17:35 AM
 #39

Good or bad, it's the will of the people.  It has legalized slavery and it has outlawed it.  It is a far better system than rulership by corrupt unelected bankers.  In the case of switching to a Bitcoin economy, it would most certainly be a good.

Wow what a fun bit of mixed metaphors!

Where does rulership by benevolent unelected bankers fit on the scale? Would that be better or worse than legalized slavery?
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October 18, 2011, 07:20:32 AM
 #40

Bitcoin is the crypto-anarchist libertarian's wet dream of a currency. Its core premise is that there is no way for anyone to force redistribution of wealth. There is nothing particularly egalitarian about bitcoin.

Both mindsets make sense. People who are inclined to the left think of redistribution as getting a competitive amount of sustenance for doing what they are trained to do. They don't feel personally responsible about the place in society they happen to be, which makes sense up to a point. Another part of the picture is the ability to become who you want, be omnidirectional, not have to put your social status or background into the equation, which makes sense too. Both are practically impossible. Bitcoin is a simple tool which might in some circumstances help with the latter, both for being independent of the banking structure and for being subject to only the least common denominator of regulations (weak point being exchanges). This helps with redistribution of wealth, especially if you think globally. Imagine you are free to compete or cooperate with anyone else on the globe; Bitcoin is an enabler in this aspect. It's not a magical solution to the distribution problem, but neither is occupy movement or such. Arguably, Bitcoin has more serious practical consequences.
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