Support a Bailout for (MT)Gox.com

[Totscha]

Personaly, I don't even see a takeover/buyout to be a viable option.

What do you get for your money? A client base that hates your guts basicaly. Most of them will pull out ASAP.

Sure they may sell off some of their assets. The value of their software is highly questionable... And the name is just synoymous with incompetence.

[1715346763]

1715346763

[1715346763]

1715346763

[T.Stuart]

Personaly, I don't even see a takeover/buyout to be a viable option.

What do you get for your money? A client base that hates your guts basicaly. Most of them will pull out ASAP.

Sure they may sell off some of their assets. The value of their software is highly questionable... And the name is just synoymous with incompetence.

I think Karpeles is getting the hate.

I don't think many would swap that hate onto a new owner - they'd be so relieved!

[Totscha]

Personaly, I don't even see a takeover/buyout to be a viable option.

What do you get for your money? A client base that hates your guts basicaly. Most of them will pull out ASAP.

Sure they may sell off some of their assets. The value of their software is highly questionable... And the name is just synoymous with incompetence.

I think Karpeles is getting the hate.

I don't think many would swap that hate onto a new owner - they'd be so relieved!

No, I would not put the hate onto the new owner. But I would hold him liable for the outstanding debt.

If he just bought my account and would not be liable for my losses, why should I use his service? That mail would be forwarded to my spam folder.

And at this point I ask myself: Who in their right mind would invest $300 million in Mt.Gox? The biggest investment in Bitcoin history goes to the most poorly implemented/managed exchange service? And I'm saying that to be nice.

Ohhhhh, they will not have all that money right away? I might get my money/Bitcoins back if I stick with them for the next few years? Weeeeeeeee, I'm so excited and relieved...


This whole "to big to fail" nonsense makes me sick. Saving MtGox is like putting a band aid on an infected limb. If we don't cut it off, the infection will spread and then Bitcoin WILL die.

It's been pointed out in the leaked document that not saving Mt.Gox will set us back by 5-10 years. Let me put this in perspective:
5 years ago : the genesis block
10 years ago : Satoshi is fooling around with his first "Hello World!" SHA256 program...

[bitcoinminer]

To the OP, I think you may be confusing Mt. GOXXX with Silk Road, because clearly you're fuckin' high.

[joehal]

It seems a bailout will happen anyway. And probably the big players/investors once they see this initiative will be motivated to get behind this also.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=488483.0

And probably a public run exchange like the one Gox will be transformed into, will inspire much more trust than any other exchange. So it will gather the most users.

[bitcoinminer]

I'd still like to see the magic the gathering exchange come back...

[beaconpcguru]

I don't believe all is lost and I believe the bad news is exaggerated.  All of my IOUs are under MtGox management, so I am biased with optimism.  I liked the comfort of my OTP and security.  All in all, I have been with MtGox since January of 2013 and while I have bouts of regret, MtGox has been the foundation for exchanges.  They took the initial risk and theretofore it had paid off.  I future is uncertain but I still have high hopes for the return of MtGox and have faith in Mr. Karpeles to work out the problems whichever they may be.  I speculated two months ago that the probability and lack of disclosure with current issues were due to US pressures that proved to be existent in all of 2013 for MtGox.  I transferred most of my funds to MtGox through Dwolla before that branch of deposit was closed.  I never had any account security problems and any support tickets I did put in were answered timely.  I am apostile verified and have the requisite limits associated with my account.  I don't have the sense of dread that most others are feeling despite much of my net worth being tied up there.  My initial investments in bitcoin were meant to be long term and in support of BTC.  I don't see lack of access to those funds as a roadblock to my longterm plans as I am not a daytrader.  I will give the blind faith that Mr. Karpeles seems to be asking of in the meantime and feel it isn't misplaced.  I see far more greed on the forums and an immediate debasement for the fellow forumer.  Those of you looking for a get rich quick scheme should immediately withdrawal all your money from BTC because your intentions are all misplaced.  I knew when I first bought my first BTC on this forum that it was a risk and as such still is.  This is an unregulated industry and as such as some road bumps that go along with it.  Many of you complain you aren't making 10% a day or get caught up in your own greed to try to plainly, covertly or otherwise manipulate others into your pocket.  As I see it, you are the poison of this technology as you hope and wish others to lose money.  Go Mr. Karpeles on your way, I'm sure your active on the forums and there's still a portion of us that believe in your good will and intentions.  In the crash of April you were the only one with the confidence to say that every one would "Get what their looking for" and I believe you will still deliver in these times once again of darkness.  It's hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes and when I place myself in Mr. Karpeles' its difficult to grasp the amount of stress and ill will that has been conveyed over the past year.  Best wishes to all and have some faith in people as I will as I ride this ship all the way to the bottom.  I will be the first to eat my words, and my investment, if it goes to the worse but as for now I consider this business as usual.

[yomofo]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486531.0

roger ver believes mtgox was insolvent for several years

[rikkejohn]

Bailouts, even in the form you're suggesting, are counter to what decentralized networks are all about.
Decentralized networks are superior because you don't have to bail out, or save any one entity.

And yet, and yet.....

Mark Kapeles of mtgox bailed out another exchange back in 2011, using 17,000 BTC of his own to make sure the customers of that exchange didn't lose money - and I'm sure they were glad.

Why did he do it? Because it's not in the long term interests of the community to allow large numbers of people to lose money. It wasn't then and it isn't now.

Decentralized networks don't mean "you don't have to bail out or save any one entity" - it just means that there is no govt to organize the bailout and the community does it instead.

Think very hard before you advocate the "selfish at all costs" model which is quite different from a decentralized model.

If these types of incidents start to happen very frequently, one of two things will happen a) bitcoin will die as people will shudder at a non-regulatory environment that practically says to crooks, come and steal there is no comeback and no compensation for the victims or b) regulation will happen because the victims become so numerous, they eventually make up the majority of the community.

I think a bailout is a good idea. Perhaps Mtgox can issue bailout bonds that we can buy for 1BTC each and which pay a % of the profits. That way he raises capital to pay the victims, they clean up mtgox - put in new management, and when it's running properly again, those of us who have participated in the bailout get a small return for our altruism.

A bailout appears unlikely, although I really like your point about decentralized networks:

"Decentralized networks don't mean "you don't have to bail out or save any one entity" - it just means that there is no govt to organize the bailout and the community does it instead.

Think very hard before you advocate the "selfish at all costs" model which is quite different from a decentralized model."

Regarding those who want Gox to die: If it is resurrected in soe form, I'm pretty sure Karpeles will not come with the house. It would effectively be a brand name under different more competent management. 

[myrond]

Bailouts, even in the form you're suggesting, are counter to what decentralized networks are all about.
Decentralized networks are superior because you don't have to bail out, or save any one entity.

And yet, and yet.....

Mark Kapeles of mtgox bailed out another exchange back in 2011, using 17,000 BTC of his own to make sure the customers of that exchange didn't lose money - and I'm sure they were glad.

Why did he do it? Because it's not in the long term interests of the community to allow large numbers of people to lose money. It wasn't then and it isn't now.

Decentralized networks don't mean "you don't have to bail out or save any one entity" - it just means that there is no govt to organize the bailout and the community does it instead.

Think very hard before you advocate the "selfish at all costs" model which is quite different from a decentralized model.

If these types of incidents start to happen very frequently, one of two things will happen a) bitcoin will die as people will shudder at a non-regulatory environment that practically says to crooks, come and steal there is no comeback and no compensation for the victims or b) regulation will happen because the victims become so numerous, they eventually make up the majority of the community.

I think a bailout is a good idea. Perhaps Mtgox can issue bailout bonds that we can buy for 1BTC each and which pay a % of the profits. That way he raises capital to pay the victims, they clean up mtgox - put in new management, and when it's running properly again, those of us who have participated in the bailout get a small return for our altruism.

customer ownership?
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1yyrvf/open_letter_to_mark_karpeles_voluntary/

[hgamezoom]

You are talking about MtGox needs to die, but what if tomorrow same situation happens to bitstamp? btc-e？

You guys don't have any bitcoins at exchange? You guys never trade online?

[Zarathustra]

You are talking about MtGox needs to die, but what if tomorrow same situation happens to bitstamp? btc-e？

If bitstamp begins to fool their customers for months as gox did, then you would have plenty of time to withdraw your coins.
If you wouldn't, you shouldn't be rewarded. To reward moral hazard behavior is bad for bitcoin.

[Moebius327]

A bailout should not cost us. If the foundation was to act in the interest of bitcoin, the core devs could develop an alternative client to fork the mtgox addresses and all the miners could decide if the bitcoins stuck there should be accessible. What happens if 51% agrees? That is in case the bitcoins are stuck and not stolen.

Also Mark should be cast into oblivion and never have access to the bitcoins again.

[Totscha]

You are talking about MtGox needs to die, but what if tomorrow same situation happens to bitstamp? btc-e？

You guys don't have any bitcoins at exchange? You guys never trade online?

Sure, i've got coins all over the interwebs (Kraken, BTC-E, Cryptsy, ...). But not enough to cry myself to sleep if I lose them all. Never more than 1/3, much less if possible.

Any business that is so irresponsible should be shut down and liquidated. And the owners/operators never trusted again.

I never did put any on Mt.Gox. I was late in the game and by then there were a lot more reliable/faster/cheaper exchanges around. I mean in October 2013 i got my EUR withdrawal from Kraken faster (5 hours) than a lot of people got their BTC from Mt.Gox.

I just couldn't understand why people put up with them. One week for a money transfer is NOT fast. Maybe in the 80s... And if constant two-three month delays are not a big enough warning sign for you to see that the company might be in trouble. And that it might not be a good idea to keep more than you can afford to lose over there. Than, I'm very sorry, but I can't help you.

[Sage]

You are talking about MtGox needs to die, but what if tomorrow same situation happens to bitstamp? btc-e？

You guys don't have any bitcoins at exchange? You guys never trade online?

The solution to all these problems is simply to create decentralized trust-less exchanges.  Those are in the works.  It's only a matter of time.

2 years from now there will be no central exchanges.   There will be no need to trust any third party.

And the price of Bitcoin will be multiples of its last high.

[BitCoinNutJob]

just join us on this, we already doing pretty good, growing following

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=489949.0

[HerrAndreas]

Bailouts, even in the form you're suggesting, are counter to what decentralized networks are all about.
Decentralized networks are superior because you don't have to bail out, or save any one entity.

If an arm or a leg dies and falls off, the organism grows new ones back, and continues thriving.
Bailouts are a mentality for the legacy centralized financial system where specific entities are needed so the whole system doesn't collapse.
Bitcoin was created for the explicit purpose of not needing such a process.

Bitcoin doesn't need to bail out MtGox.  Its just a limb that can fall off.  The organism will continue to thrive.
All this babble in the media about Bitcoins reputation being harmed for "years to come" is just that.  Babbling nonsense.

Highly recommend everyone watch this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc1ZFTnSSVM

-B-

this.

[joehal]

just join us on this, we already doing pretty good, growing following

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=489949.0

Yeah, we have a better solution than a bailout.

[hgamezoom]

You are talking about MtGox needs to die, but what if tomorrow same situation happens to bitstamp? btc-e？

You guys don't have any bitcoins at exchange? You guys never trade online?

Sure, i've got coins all over the interwebs (Kraken, BTC-E, Cryptsy, ...). But not enough to cry myself to sleep if I lose them all. Never more than 1/3, much less if possible.

Any business that is so irresponsible should be shut down and liquidated. And the owners/operators never trusted again.

I never did put any on Mt.Gox. I was late in the game and by then there were a lot more reliable/faster/cheaper exchanges around. I mean in October 2013 i got my EUR withdrawal from Kraken faster (5 hours) than a lot of people got their BTC from Mt.Gox.

I just couldn't understand why people put up with them. One week for a money transfer is NOT fast. Maybe in the 80s... And if constant two-three month delays are not a big enough warning sign for you to see that the company might be in trouble. And that it might not be a good idea to keep more than you can afford to lose over there. Than, I'm very sorry, but I can't help you.

First I did not lost more than I can afford there, but it is still significant money , around $50000.
Anyone lost that amount of money won't feel good, right?

Second, although the fiat withdraw has been very slow for months, that can't indicate it is insolvent. The large volumn of withdraw requests sounds reasonable and the bitcoin withdraw is always instant.

Actually I haven't used btc-e or bitstamp, who knows what is the situation there? I also saw a lot of people blaming them. So it is very difficult for a normal user to identify which are good exchanges which are risky.

[hgamezoom]

You are talking about MtGox needs to die, but what if tomorrow same situation happens to bitstamp? btc-e？

You guys don't have any bitcoins at exchange? You guys never trade online?

The solution to all these problems is simply to create decentralized trust-less exchanges.  Those are in the works.  It's only a matter of time.

2 years from now there will be no central exchanges.   There will be no need to trust any third party.

And the price of Bitcoin will be multiples of its last high.

Decentralized exchanges, how do people deposit money? If I made an agreement with some guy to buy bitcoin from him, how can I pay? Do I need to carry my cash and meet him somewhere in the city? Sounds ridiculous if that was the case.