Restoring Lost Bitcoins

[mirelo]

Hi,

Here is a way of restoring lost bitcoins.

By design, it is impossible to tell idle bitcoins from lost ones. However, with time, there will be an increasing number of lost bitcoins, which will further increase Bitcoin's inherent deflation unnecessarily. How to avoid that? The solution is to define an expiration period for bitcoins, after which any public key that does not reappear in the block chain will expire. Then the Bitcoin client must have functionality to resend those bitcoins to their current wallet (or to any other wallet) before they expire (the client could periodically verify and warn the user, asking what to do). The expiration interval could be a very comfortable one, say, 10 years. After their expiration, the network nodes can mine those expired bitcoins again, so mining remains residually alive.

Please comment on that one.

[1714131596]

1714131596

[1714131596]

1714131596

[Gabi]

The solution is to define an expiration period for bitcoins

NO

The expiration interval could be a very comfortable one, say, 10 years.

NO

[robocop]

Deflation is better than the current exploding money-systems ;-)

If the people would hold their bitcoins because of a deflation then the economy will suffer and the trust in the bitcoins will go down.

But the idea with expiring money is not bad and will force the cycle of money.
Money should be go through a lot of hand and make a lot of benefit.
Money which will stored for longer time is one of the main reason that the world have exploding debt.

[windywinter]

I think the way to restore lost coins has been build into bitcoin system. If you were lucky enough, bitcoin client would generate you an address witch has been used before, and probably contains lost coins.

[kokjo]

If you were lucky enough,

also if you are lucky enough, you can jump out of the window and not hitting the earth.
the recover lost addresses, is just unlikely. even if every atom in the universe, could generate 10mio addresse per second. and had done that since the beginning of the universe, they would with 99,9999% certainty not have found two equal addresses.

[mirelo]

The solution is to define an expiration period for bitcoins

NO

The expiration interval could be a very comfortable one, say, 10 years.

NO

No? Why?

Since there is no way of telling idle bitcoins from lost ones, the only way I see to tell them apart is forcing the idle ones to "show up" before some "deadline," and if they don't, then expire them. If not, then please let me (and the others) know why not.

[odysseus654]

No? Why?

Since there is no way of telling idle bitcoins from lost ones, the only way I see to tell them apart is forcing the idle ones to "show up" before some "deadline," and if they don't, then expire them. If not, then please let me (and the others) know why not.

I think at least part of the reason is that it would force people to spend their bitcoins at some point, and thus at least partially identify themselves.

[mirelo]

No? Why?

Since there is no way of telling idle bitcoins from lost ones, the only way I see to tell them apart is forcing the idle ones to "show up" before some "deadline," and if they don't, then expire them. If not, then please let me (and the others) know why not.

I think at least part of the reason is that it would force people to spend their bitcoins at some point, and thus at least partially identify themselves.

This is a fallacious argument: The lack of anonymity of Bitcoin is a consequence of not taking the required measures to make it anonymous, rather than a consequence of spending it.

[johnj]

No? Why?

Since there is no way of telling idle bitcoins from lost ones, the only way I see to tell them apart is forcing the idle ones to "show up" before some "deadline," and if they don't, then expire them. If not, then please let me (and the others) know why not.

Someone goes into a coma for too long, they wake up to their bitcoins gone.  Thats just one example, but enough for me.

[deepceleron]

I mined the coins, it's my godamm'd right to never spend them! The unborn grandkids that will inherit them will think it's novel that I mined them on a video card that didn't even have a laser 7 holo output or quark computing.

[mirelo]

No? Why?

Since there is no way of telling idle bitcoins from lost ones, the only way I see to tell them apart is forcing the idle ones to "show up" before some "deadline," and if they don't, then expire them. If not, then please let me (and the others) know why not.

Someone goes into a coma for too long, they wake up to their bitcoins gone.  Thats just one example, but enough for me.

If bitcoin is to become our everyday money, then we will access our wallets at least once each, say, ten years, don't you think? For how many days can you afford not touching your wallet (I mean the one with dollars)? If bitcoin is to be our actual money, then that's the time interval you will be able to stay away from your bitcoin wallet. And every time you do, it will check your bitcoins expiration status and warn you, asking what to do.

That leaves the situation in which you keep a separate wallet full of bitcoins that you never touch. Yet even in this case I would restore it at least once each five years or so just to ensure it still works, wouldn't you?

[mirelo]

I mined the coins, it's my godamm'd right to never spend them! The unborn grandkids that will inherit them will think it's novel that I mined them on a video card that didn't even have a laser 7 holo output or quark computing.

That's the way one would think about toy money, but if bitcoin will ever become our everyday money, then we would have to take it much more seriously.

[ahimsa]

Hi,

Then the Bitcoin client must have functionality to resend those bitcoins to their current wallet (or to any other wallet) before they expire

Really cute feature but why would we want forced communication (resend those bitcoins to their current wallet) in an anonymous currency?

Unintended consequences anyone?

When I used to write code years ago, I had a motto. Make things simple, straightforward and let them behave the same always. The reason is that flexibiliy = Complexity Squared. And complexity leads to buggy systems.

Besides all the other reasons not to do this is you are building in a massive amount of complexity dealing with all this "Sending bitcoins to their current wallet" stuff.

My thoughts.

[mirelo]

Hi,

Then the Bitcoin client must have functionality to resend those bitcoins to their current wallet (or to any other wallet) before they expire

Really cute feature but why would we want forced communication (resend those bitcoins to their current wallet) in an anonymous currency?

Unintended consequences anyone?

When I used to write code years ago, I had a motto. Make things simple, straightforward and let them behave the same always. The reason is that flexibiliy = Complexity Squared. And complexity leads to buggy systems.

Besides all the other reasons not to do this is you are building in a massive amount of complexity dealing with all this "Sending bitcoins to their current wallet" stuff.

My thoughts.

The bitcoin client already sends bitcoins back to your wallet in various situations: it is already quite complicated. The aim is precisely to guarantee anonymity. In the expiration scenario, it would do the same to guarantee not anonymity, but the fixed supply of bitcoins.

[johnj]

No? Why?

Since there is no way of telling idle bitcoins from lost ones, the only way I see to tell them apart is forcing the idle ones to "show up" before some "deadline," and if they don't, then expire them. If not, then please let me (and the others) know why not.

Someone goes into a coma for too long, they wake up to their bitcoins gone.  Thats just one example, but enough for me.

If bitcoin is to become our everyday money, then we will access our wallets at least once each, say, ten years, don't you think? For how many days can you afford not touching your wallet (I mean the one with dollars)? If bitcoin is to be our actual money, then that's the time interval you will be able to stay away from your bitcoin wallet. And every time you do, it will check your bitcoins expiration status and warn you, asking what to do.

That leaves the situation in which you keep a separate wallet full of bitcoins that you never touch. Yet even in this case I would restore it at least once each five years or so just to ensure it still works, wouldn't you?

Yes, but there are 'wallet' situations and 'savings' situations.  Bitcoins in 'savings' could be in a safe, or a vault (on a USB drive or via a paper key).  And you still haven't addressed the medical emergencies which could potentially cause your 'savings' to expire, just so some other miners out there could get a few more coins.  No thanks.

[mirelo]

No? Why?

Since there is no way of telling idle bitcoins from lost ones, the only way I see to tell them apart is forcing the idle ones to "show up" before some "deadline," and if they don't, then expire them. If not, then please let me (and the others) know why not.

Someone goes into a coma for too long, they wake up to their bitcoins gone.  Thats just one example, but enough for me.

If bitcoin is to become our everyday money, then we will access our wallets at least once each, say, ten years, don't you think? For how many days can you afford not touching your wallet (I mean the one with dollars)? If bitcoin is to be our actual money, then that's the time interval you will be able to stay away from your bitcoin wallet. And every time you do, it will check your bitcoins expiration status and warn you, asking what to do.

That leaves the situation in which you keep a separate wallet full of bitcoins that you never touch. Yet even in this case I would restore it at least once each five years or so just to ensure it still works, wouldn't you?

Yes, but there are 'wallet' situations and 'savings' situations.  Bitcoins in 'savings' could be in a safe, or a vault (on a USB drive or via a paper key).  And you still haven't addressed the medical emergencies which could potentially cause your 'savings' to expire, just so some other miners out there could get a few more coins.  No thanks.

I understand your worries perfectly. But let me try addressing them. Regarding 'wallet' situations, case closed: there is no problem with an expiration period, provided bitcoin becomes our everyday money (which I hope it will). Now regarding 'savings' situations. In ten years (from now), we will certainly have (if we do not already have) technology for building bitcoin wallet gadgets capable of activating themselves and connecting to the network before their contained bitcoins expire, which solves all your worries, in addition to finally telling you where the heck are those savings you no longer remember where you hided. And don't tell me this sounds like science fiction: remember we are talking about bitcoin, which ten years ago would sound much more so.

However, I would like to stress that even without such gadgets most people simply won't let ten years pass without accessing their 'savings' wallet (even from the hospital), at least if it contains serious money.

[johnj]

I understand your worries perfectly. But let me try addressing them. Regarding 'wallet' situations, case closed: there is no problem with an expiration period, provided bitcoin becomes our everyday money (which I hope it will). Now regarding 'savings' situations. In ten years (from now), we will certainly have (if we do not already have) technology for building bitcoin wallet gadgets capable of activating themselves and connecting to the network before their contained bitcoins expire, which solves all your worries, in addition to finally telling you where the heck are those savings you no longer remember where you hided. And don't tell me this sounds like science fiction: remember we are talking about bitcoin, which ten years ago would sound much more so.

However, I would like to stress that even without such gadgets most people simply won't let ten years pass without accessing their 'savings' wallet (even from the hospital), at least if it contains serious money.

A device which connects to a network automatically is just asking to be hacked.  Thats why the 'savings' are offline in cold storage.  And still does nothing to address medical situations that occur now (ie coma).

[mirelo]

I understand your worries perfectly. But let me try addressing them. Regarding 'wallet' situations, case closed: there is no problem with an expiration period, provided bitcoin becomes our everyday money (which I hope it will). Now regarding 'savings' situations. In ten years (from now), we will certainly have (if we do not already have) technology for building bitcoin wallet gadgets capable of activating themselves and connecting to the network before their contained bitcoins expire, which solves all your worries, in addition to finally telling you where the heck are those savings you no longer remember where you hided. And don't tell me this sounds like science fiction: remember we are talking about bitcoin, which ten years ago would sound much more so.

However, I would like to stress that even without such gadgets most people simply won't let ten years pass without accessing their 'savings' wallet (even from the hospital), at least if it contains serious money.

A device which connects to a network automatically is just asking to be hacked.  Thats why the 'savings' are offline in cold storage.  And still does nothing to address medical situations that occur now (ie coma).

Well, if this expiration period is implemented now, then it will just occur ten years from now, so we will not have to worry about it for a long time.

And although those gadgets are possible, if you have a wallet with a serious amount of society's current money, you will much more probably have it invested in some way, rather than just stored in a pen drive hidden somewhere. The problem is that we are still thinking of bitcoin as not being serious money.

As for the device being hacked, bitcoin's protection is in its cryptography, and not in the gadget itself.

[johnj]

The problem is that we are still thinking of bitcoin as not being serious money.

I'm not aware of any 'serious money' that just disappears after Xyrs of inactivity, only to be redistributed to others

I agree that it's somewhat of a problem discerning which bitcoins are 'lost' vs which ones are 'stored'.  But that's up to the market. 

[mirelo]

The problem is that we are still thinking of bitcoin as not being serious money.

I'm not aware of any 'serious money' that just disappears after Xyrs of inactivity, only to be redistributed to others

I agree that it's somewhat of a problem discerning which bitcoins are 'lost' vs which ones are 'stored'.  But that's up to the market.  

Money just disappearing is quite common: just put U$ 10,000.00 under your pillow and let ten years pass to see a good deal of money disappear.

Regarding the problem of discerning which bitcoins are 'lost' vs which ones are 'stored', it's more then a bit of a problem: it is impossible, which leads to the money supply being continuously eroded, hence to a higher level of deflation than is necessary. The idea is to preserve the monetary system, making it more resilient.