suing mt.gox poland

[shadyz]

So 5000pln is 1631$ is the maximum? What's the reason for this maximum? How long would it take to get it?

[1713489633]

1713489633

[1713489633]

1713489633

[epubmatic]

I'm with you. Thanks!

[glon]

I urge everyone participating to understand a peculiar risk there. First, as Peacefuls pointed out, if you sue Gox Poland for fraud they can probably go straight into court administration mode. Which means a long and untender road until which time the subsidiary will already be tied up into the insolvency storm of Gox Japan. Then, the best case is you will get the measly 5000 PLN. Which, you supposedly should receive anyway given the liable equity capital.
Second, assuming they are in charge of both the deposit account and the EUR account, this would inhibit transactions from there as well. Since people still receive payments from there (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=489652.0), it shows money is left. Therefore I propose to not sue them for fraud and halting operations, but to apply pressure and negotiate to keep fulfilling their normal business obligations until funds are depleted or official bankruptcy repercussions govern the course of things anyhow.
OP, your thoughts on this? (My sincere condolences, it's bitter times but you will come through eventually).

Very well said! Your thoughts OP?

[malevolent]

sorry guys but something urgent came up and i have to go offline for a bit. Back in 2h

sorry but I didn't understand what you mean. Is this action only for people who wired PLN to Gox' account at WBK Bank Zachodni?
If a user had Euros on his account resulting from BTC trading instead of deposit, aren't those funds supposed to be still located on the Polish bank?

I transferred 35000€ to the Bank, so i am whit you.

on this way you will get back max. 5000 PLN as you can read earlier in this posts. So it is a max around 1200€
against 35000€

not a good idea i think!

you can only recover 5000PLN because mt.gox poland set their nominal/original/opening capital at 5000PLN.

If I'm not mistaken that would mean only 5k PLN can be recovered in total, not per person, and the rest would have to be recovered from Mt.Gox based in Japan (they're the sole shareholder of Mt.Gox Poland).

[minerpumpkin]

What if Mark Karpeles files for bankruptcy, how will this affect Mt. Gox Poland and the chances of getting back money from them?
See: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z4olv/rogerver_states_on_irc_that_mt_gox_filing_for/

[glon]

I urge everyone participating to understand a peculiar risk there. First, as Peacefuls pointed out, if you sue Gox Poland for fraud they can probably go straight into court administration mode. Which means a long and untender road until which time the subsidiary will already be tied up into the insolvency storm of Gox Japan. Then, the best case is you will get the measly 5000 PLN. Which, you supposedly should receive anyway given the liable equity capital.
Second, assuming they are in charge of both the deposit account and the EUR account, this would inhibit transactions from there as well. Since people still receive payments from there (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=489652.0), it shows money is left. Therefore I propose to not sue them for fraud and halting operations, but to apply pressure and negotiate to keep fulfilling their normal business obligations until funds are depleted or official bankruptcy repercussions govern the course of things anyhow.
OP, your thoughts on this? (My sincere condolences, it's bitter times but you will come through eventually).

Very well said! Your thoughts OP?

Yes, I have taken all this^ into consideration before i started this. To be honest with you, this is not my personal vendetta on mt.gox, i am just trying to help the community and if they want me to stop i will stop all proceeding.
I have already tried several methods of negotiation mostly with mt.gox poland by sending letters and emails. Representative mr. Bratlomiej Szabat is unreachable. mr. Mark Karpeles wrote in the recent announcement that he instructed all staff not to communicate or respond to any requests. that might be the reason for that. 

I know you are frustrated as well as we all are, but I really think your actions (if succesful) are going to cause more harm than good, seeing as the best you can hope for is the 5000PLN which you will eventually get anyway if things go as south as they seem to be heading. I personally urge you to reconsider your lawsuit (and yes I have a pending SEPA withdrawal from Gox so I am acting also a bit selfishly here).

[Peacefuls]

thats all interesting points...
really confused for everyone of us what the best to do yet.
5000PLN recoverd is not as much - the equivalent differenz per claim from tokyo means we sue first Poland and then Tokyo.
so if i weigh the profit of this ( really appreciated initiative for your community ) and the affects of negativ - especially for people with pending withdrawals where seems to be processed during em ty gox site is down show´s that they where advised not to communicat but ( thats selfishly outputed ) hopefully do their job processing withdrawals getting out before emtygox goes off...

[Spekulatius]

@ OP: So, who are you planning on suing exactly?

Mt.Gox Poland, Mt.Gox Japan, their Polish Bank, Mr. Bartlomiej Szabat?

What about people with BTC, USD, EUR balances in their accounts?

[glon]

To whom it may concern:

mt.gox japan lawyer has filed for bankruptcy protection today and I think we all know what that means. I have also spoken with my lawyer and we now have two choices:

1. We can still file the summons against mt.gox poland for fraud and misleading but we won't be able to recover anything at this point. The outcome of this would be mr bartlomiej szabat detained, mt.gox WBK bank account seized and their credit reputation over here ruined! Also a government record.

2. We can cancel all proceedings and just hope for the best.


Since i am not on this alone i would like to ask everyone involved, what are your thoughts and how do you think we should proceed. 

I'd advise to go for point 2 at least until the time when it's made officially clear whether we can even hope for the fiat withdrawals that were initiated before Gox went bust, to be processed. If it turns out those withdrawals are lost as well (or subject to bankrupcy protection) and there's no point to keep the WBK account alive, then continue with point 1.

Hope this makes sense.

[exocytosis]

To whom it may concern:

mt.gox japan lawyer has filed for bankruptcy protection today and I think we all know what that means. I have also spoken with my lawyer and we now have two choices:

1. We can still file the summons against mt.gox poland for fraud and misleading but we won't be able to recover anything at this point. The outcome of this would be mr bartlomiej szabat detained, mt.gox WBK bank account seized and their credit reputation over here ruined! Also a government record.

2. We can cancel all proceedings and just hope for the best.


Since i am not on this alone i would like to ask everyone involved, what are your thoughts and how do you think we should proceed.  

I'm not sure. Of course I want those fuckers to face justice, but I've lost hope and have no faith in the judicial system. Maybe it's for the better if I forget about this and move on with my life. It doesn't seem likely that there's anything to gain by suing either Mark Karpeles or Bartlomiej Szabat. Or am I wrong?

BTW: Isn't the Polish bank (that Gox used) also complicit in all of this? They accepted deposits right until the moment when Gox went dark. (I know that because I was among those who deposited at that time.) I talked to them a couple of days ago. Here's what they replied to the first mail I sent them:

Dear Customer,

thank you for your message.

With reference to your e-mail regarding bitcoin transaction made with mentioned company, I kindly inform, that according to bank?s secrecy I cannot provide any information about account of that company.

Claims should be addressed to the company.

However, if you feel deceived, please, report that issue to law enforcement in you country. Bank Zachodni WBK will cooperate in that issue with properly institutions from your country.

I hope that above information will be helpful. In case of additional questions, please contact us.

(Notice how he mentioned deception even though the only thing I'd told him at that point was to recall the last of my fiat transactions. I hadn't given him any reason for my wish to recall the money. Nor had I mentioned bitcoins or MtGox. (The very first thing I did was to instruct my own bank to do a recall, of course.))

Here's the second (and last) reply:

Dear Customer,

thank you for your message.

With reference to your e-mail regarding fraudulent transaction, I kindly inform, that you need to report it to law enforcement in your country.

Bank Zachodni WBK will cooperate with them to solve your issue. I can assure you that we will take every necessary step for resolution.


I hope that above information will be helpful. In case of additional questions, please contact us.

I did, of course, inform the so called law enforcement in my country (in an extensive e-mail), but they haven't answered. They're probably too busy drinking coffee and eating donuts.

[Jahu]

Hi! I have also deposited PLN to BZ WBK (700zł to be exact) two days before site went down. I had a substancial number of BTC at mtgox account too. I have lost everything. If there is a way to make them bastards pay just tell me what to do.

[alexanderrrr]

Karpeles is the mastermind behind all this tho..

[dafqok]

option 2. Unless you are into retaliation from this guy and additional bad press. Imagine how words will spread amongst the banking scene. No bank will ever want to get involved in Bitcoin proponents again (less so then today), giving it the stigmata of a fraudsters' business. However, nowadays it's still necessary to have those links into fiat world to endorse Bitcoin with real value.

Thank you for your investigations, it shed a light on the most fundamental things. Something in my guts is telling me that a good stance with this 'prokurent' and WKB Bank can still pay off in future.

PS: if it's still technically possible despite their holding company being under bankruptcy protection, maybe sueing them not for fraud but for enforcing contracts based on private law (reversal of payments and processing payments due) is another way.

[trdiablo]

I didnt deposit money to the Polish bank but I did withdraw from Gox mid-January so I hope this polish bank wil still send out SEPA payments!
There is absolutely no info about that anywhere.

[pascalvanhecke]

mt.gox accepted fiat deposits automatically and processed fiat withdrawals manually

Hi st4nl3y,

What is your source of information on the WBK account?  Your posting seems to suggest that there is no money in the account and that money sent to the MtGox Poland account at WBK was either sent to an account of the Japanese Mt.Gox mother company, or used immediately to pay waiting withdrawals (you said the same thing in a PM which I did not respond to yet - bcs the issue is relevant for everyone I am asking the question in a public post).

Pascal

[iFA88]

Hy! I'm with you. I have on 2014.02.24. 500 euro deposited. And now its the site down and bankruptcy...
When u need my details send me a PM.
Thanks!

I am preparing to sue mt.gox poland for fraud (art. 286  #2, #3, #4) and misleading (art. 286 #1) The first person to get arrested will be this fucking scammer representative of mt.gox poland named Bartlomiej Szabat because in poland for something like this you just get arrested straight away until proven NOT GUILTY. This is not regarding bitcoins but the currency deposits. I have already spoken with my lawyer and we need to act asap in case they close polish mt.gox. I might need more users that deposited money in to mt'gox polish bank WBK Bank Zachodni, to be 100% successful. Whos with me on this1?? 

[Peacefuls]

Hi @all

so i did higher deposit at the 24.02.14 - advised my bank to cancel it but they made a mistake and it gone through 
not that i have a pending withdraw with 45500€ ....

i work on it to recover it from my bank - hope i get it but it doesnt look as good as i want....

today they informed me about the answer from WBK Poland.

following:
Please be informed that your inquiry is under investigation.
We can confirm that the payment was executed and your account has bin credited.

at the moment beneficiary is not available and we are not able to return the funds.

unfortunately according to polish law we cannot give you more detailed information....

so i think WBK works but from the bankruptcy statement on they are also involved and under investigation of the court.

bankruptcy protection protects MtGox for any sue.

So - sadly!!! - i think we can do nothing....

also i tried to phone this callcenter - so way, always busy...

thats just what i think - any further ideas helping out is highly appreciated.

[iFA88]

My bank (Erste bank Hungary) has refused the cancel because the money is soon arrived to the others balance.

Hi @all

so i did higher deposit at the 24.02.14 - advised my bank to cancel it but they made a mistake and it gone through 
not that i have a pending withdraw with 45500€ ....

i work on it to recover it from my bank - hope i get it but it doesnt look as good as i want....

today they informed me about the answer from WBK Poland.

following:
Please be informed that your inquiry is under investigation.
We can confirm that the payment was executed and your account has bin credited.

at the moment beneficiary is not available and we are not able to return the funds.

unfortunately according to polish law we cannot give you more detailed information....

so i think WBK works but from the bankruptcy statement on they are also involved and under investigation of the court.

bankruptcy protection protects MtGox for any sue.

So - sadly!!! - i think we can do nothing....

also i tried to phone this callcenter - so way, always busy...

thats just what i think - any further ideas helping out is highly appreciated.

[exocytosis]

but we won't be able to recover anything at this point.

Are you sure about that? Nothing?

[malevolent]

We now have 11 letters. We need another 9 users who feel they have been defrauded and willing to participate in a criminal case against mt.gox poland to be successful.

Have you tried asking people on forum.bitcoin.pl?
https://forum.bitcoin.pl/mtgox-dyskusja-ogolna-t8001-1520.html