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Author Topic: UK bitcoin users/ business owners - Please read this  (Read 3884 times)
James-Cryptonomics (OP)
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February 28, 2014, 12:05:13 AM
Last edit: February 28, 2014, 01:40:45 PM by James-Cryptonomics
 #1

Hello all,

Its not often that I get annoyed. I pride myself on staying cool, calm and collective - and taking things in my stride. However today after being told yet again by a UK bank that they could not facilitate my business (trading bitcoins) I found myself becoming irritated and quite frankly pissed off.

I am fed up with UK banks declining me for a business account for my trading business. I was wondering if anyone else has been met by the same firewall? I don't understand why a UK company, in a free and democratic society, should not be allowed to conduct business in the order they see fit - as long as no EXISTING legislation prohibits these practices.

The total irony is that my business ran smooth as a nut until I made one fatal mistake - attempting to take my company down the appropriate legal path. Even though I do have some anti-establishment tendencies, I believe in being a good citizen and paying my dues.

UK banks firewall on anything bitcoin related is not only morally reprehensible and totally wrong - but it stiffing my country from competing in a new and exciting technology.

This is the straw that broke this camels back.

I personally now would like to fight this battle further, and would be extremely interested to hear from others who would like to participate in this undertaking. I'm not asking for much. More communication from bitcoin related businesses operating in the UK and the wider UK community, a few signatures on letters here and there, maybe a little guidance from people who feel competent enough to give.  

Enough is enough people, time to start demanding answers on the UK's stance on bitcoin.
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February 28, 2014, 12:11:59 AM
 #2

Hello all,

Its not often that I get annoyed. I pride myself on staying cool, calm and collective - and taking things in my stride. However today after being told yet again by a UK bank that they could not facilitate my business (trading bitcoins) I found myself becoming irritated and quite frankly pissed off.

I am fed up with UK banks declining me for a business account for my trading business. I was wondering if anyone else has been met by the same firewall? I don't understand why residents of the UK, a free democratic society, can not conduct business in the order they see fit - as long as no EXISTING legislation prohibits these practices.

The total irony is that my business ran smooth as a nut until I made one fatal mistake - attempting to take my company down the appropriate legal path. Even though I do have some anti-establishment tendencies, I believe in being a good citizen and paying my dues.

UK banks firewall on anything bitcoin related is not only morally reprehensible and totally wrong - but it stiffing my country from competing in a new and exciting technology.

This is the straw that broke this camels back.

I personally now would like to fight this battle further, and would be extremely interested to hear from others who would like to participate in this undertaking. I'm not asking for much. More communication from bitcoin related businesses operating in the UK and the wider UK community, a few signatures on letters here and there, maybe a little guidance from people who feel competent enough to give.  

Enough is enough people, time to start demanding answers on the UK's stance on bitcoin.

maybe write a better business plan that wont confuse them. im with halifax and they love me.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
James-Cryptonomics (OP)
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February 28, 2014, 12:14:15 AM
 #3

I don't even get a chance to show them my business plan. The moment I mention bitcoin they say they can't facilitate me. I have been waiting for a phone call back from Halifax for 3 days now.
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February 28, 2014, 12:40:16 AM
 #4

set a meeting with a bank manager at your local branch.. head office call centre staff are not bankers, they are customer service reps with most probably ASDA retail experience on their C.V.

go to local bank manager with proof that bitcoin is safe, that you know the EU wire transfer regulations and all the other info on pound coin transactions.

as long as you show you can manage pound coins and do so responsibly that is one of the big hurdles. by you setting limits per customer per day helps reduce the banks own risks and the amount of double checking banks are required to do.

dont just turn up to the meeting or answer the phonecall "i sell bitcoin... gimme account". make a proper planned script/ presentation that shows that you have all the known issues worked out and fully controlled.

if they say no.. ask why. get a definitive answer.
once you get the answer ask how to solve their issue.

dont just walk out with a huff.

i found the only issue was they were worried about people washing their bank notes with soap... oops i meant the other type of money laundering..

once i told them about my due diliegence checks and money limits etc, i got accepted. and the manager said if i had any issues due to head office to speak to him and he will then explain to head office.

2 years and touch wood.. no problems

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 28, 2014, 12:54:55 AM
 #5

I don't understand why residents of the UK, a free democratic society

I've found your mistake and quoted it in order to bring it to your attention.
+1

parliament are... kinda democratic. well the 500 people that get paid talk to each other and decide how to screw the country over.. but banks dont do voting. they are a corporation, which is definitely not part of the free democratic society. even though the word free is used more to do with that parliament are free to do what they want as long as their 500 peers vote on it. (nothing to do with citizens voting/choosing).

i don't believe in voting. especially in england. whoever you choose to control the country will just end up screwing you over, there is no point voting for one, they all are the same.
and i do not believe the general population knows who is the best person to vote for either.. after all it was only a couple years ago that a dancing dog won britains got talent.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
James-Cryptonomics (OP)
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February 28, 2014, 01:10:33 AM
 #6

set a meeting with a bank manager at your local branch.. head office call centre staff are not bankers, they are customer service reps with most probably ASDA retail experience on their C.V.

go to local bank manager with proof that bitcoin is safe, that you know the EU wire transfer regulations and all the other info on pound coin transactions.

as long as you show you can manage pound coins and do so responsibly that is one of the big hurdles. by you setting limits per customer per day helps reduce the banks own risks and the amount of double checking banks are required to do.

dont just turn up to the meeting or answer the phonecall "i sell bitcoin... gimme account". make a proper planned script/ presentation that shows that you have all the known issues worked out and fully controlled.

if they say no.. ask why. get a definitive answer.
once you get the answer ask how to solve their issue.

dont just walk out with a huff.

i found the only issue was they were worried about people washing their bank notes with soap... oops i meant the other type of money laundering..

once i told them about my due diliegence checks and money limits etc, i got accepted. and the manager said if i had any issues due to head office to speak to him and he will then explain to head office.

2 years and touch wood.. no problems
Firstly, thank you for taking the time out to offer me your guidance. I appreciate you have been successful in this field, but I feel you may have underestimated the problem.
 
I have ran two successful businesses in the past and subsequently feel I have some degree of competence in presenting a business to a bank manager. This is not the problem. The problem is getting in the room in the first place. When I approach my local bank they always inform me I have to ring and book an appointment - so I have no choice but to speak to the 'asda' trained call-center staff.

I also know this is not just a problem for me. Firstly I would like to link you to an article where the author is having exactly the same issues:

https://www.scirra.com/blog/tom/4/bitcoins-uk-future-looks-bleak

Members of this board have also complained about being 'strangled' by the national banks:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=484490.0;all

I have communicated with two UK bitcoin businesses today and I have no doubt you would know at least one of the businesses by name (I wont reveal due to confidentiality). One stated that they have no choice but to use offshore banking facilities whilst the other admitted he outright lied in order to gain access to a bank account (the first also suggested I should lie).

I suspect, without meaning to sound rude, that your ease in setting up a business account was due to the date you set up (you said almost two years - before bitcoin was on the mainstream radar).

Again - I don't wish to sound offensive in any capacity as I am thankful for your response. I just wished to outline the information I know.  
James-Cryptonomics (OP)
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February 28, 2014, 01:16:50 AM
 #7

I don't understand why residents of the UK, a free democratic society

I've found your mistake and quoted it in order to bring it to your attention.
+1

parliament are... kinda democratic. well the 500 people that get paid talk to each other and decide how to screw the country over.. but banks dont do voting. they are a corporation, which is definitely not part of the free democratic society. even though the word free is used more to do with that parliament are free to do what they want as long as their 500 peers vote on it. (nothing to do with citizens voting/choosing).

i don't believe in voting. especially in england. whoever you choose to control the country will just end up screwing you over, there is no point voting for one, they all are the same.
and i do not believe the general population knows who is the best person to vote for either.. after all it was only a couple years ago that a dancing dog won britains got talent.
Hah! Although your statement is fully correct, compared to some of the worlds corrupt states we do have some vague resemblance of a free society. Just don't mess with the banks.
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February 28, 2014, 06:57:50 AM
 #8

Its not often that I get annoyed. I pride myself on staying cool, calm and collective - and taking things in my stride. However today after being told yet again by a UK bank that they could not facilitate my business (trading bitcoins) I found myself becoming irritated and quite frankly pissed off.
I'm hearing this a lot amongst us UK people. I do think it is a serious problem. Which banks have you tried?
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February 28, 2014, 07:02:34 AM
 #9

fully understand.

i don't think it is the new mainstreaming efforts surrounding bitcoin vs the lack of knowledge a couple years back that made the difference. as i had to explain the whole silk road rhetoric to them and explain how i would reduce/remove risk of banking facilities being linked to criminals. which today is not a problem.

i think, from my experience the bank manager i spoke with was very understanding and seen the positives. where as some other branches probably have narrow minded old school banking personalities.

all i can say is don't give up the fight.

i know that in one of the conversations i mentioned that bitcoins does not affect the pounds stability or usefulness. because the purchase or selling of bitcoins is a simple movement of pounds from buyer to seller. so bitcoins can be categorised in the same manner as a car dealership that helps banks circulate funds between uk accounts. that it is nothing at all like foreigners putting bank notes into envelopes and posting it abroad (making it out of circulation). bitcoins helps fiat circulate, which banks want and love. and reduces the need to take bank notes out of the system via royal mail.

i have had many conversations and im not sure which point 'green lighted' the application, but as i said

don't give up the fight

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 28, 2014, 07:10:10 AM
 #10

In Australia the best bet is to promise to only accept cash deposits.

That way there is zero risk of people claiming the transfers were stolen etc.

Might help.



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February 28, 2014, 07:12:04 AM
 #11

i have had many conversations and im not sure which point 'green lighted' the application, but as i said

don't give up the fight
I realise it is a lot to ask but is there maybe a chance that you could speak to your bank contact and ask them for other contacts within Halifax that would be willing to listen to small bitcoin business owners/entrepreneurs who have a solid business plan and now need a bank account?

At least then when the next thread comes up on this board of a UK business owner despairing at not being able to get banking (this is the second I've seen this week), we could say, "franky1 has some banking contacts who are at least willing to listen to you, ask them in PM for the details"
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February 28, 2014, 07:57:19 AM
 #12

Just don't tell them about bitcoin, simple. You don't have to lie, just skirt around the issue.

BINTEX


















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February 28, 2014, 08:28:15 AM
 #13

Just don't tell them about bitcoin, simple. You don't have to lie, just skirt around the issue.
I really would not advise this course of action if you're an honest businessperson (yes, I realise that banks are some of the most dishonest organisations in existence). This is a Mark Karpeles move.

Just think about what happens if your business is established and operating and then one day the bank decides to freeze your account. You suddenly can't pay any of your suppliers or staff and depending on your type of business you may even have customer funds in there. This can kill your business, lose you staff and customers.

Changing bank account voluntarily was one of the most awkward things I had to do for my own business and that was prompted by myself with no issue of freezing. I can't imagine how disruptive it would be to have it frozen.

Honestly I'd rather the bank said no up front than find out I lied and shut me down once I was in operation.

Also it may not even be possible to skirt around the issue. The last two business current accounts I applied for required an in-person meeting to discuss my business, which both times touched on how my customers will pay me and how I will pay my suppliers.

If you're running a bitcoin-related business as a registered company in your jurisdiction I really think you need to have a good relationship with your bank.
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February 28, 2014, 08:33:09 AM
 #14

Just don't tell them about bitcoin, simple. You don't have to lie, just skirt around the issue.
I really would not advise this course of action if you're an honest businessperson (yes, I realise that banks are some of the most dishonest organisations in existence). This is a Mark Karpeles move.

Just think about what happens if your business is established and operating and then one day the bank decides to freeze your account. You suddenly can't pay any of your suppliers or staff and depending on your type of business you may even have customer funds in there. This can kill your business, lose you staff and customers.

Changing bank account voluntarily was one of the most awkward things I had to do for my own business and that was prompted by myself with no issue of freezing. I can't imagine how disruptive it would be to have it frozen.

Honestly I'd rather the bank said no up front than find out I lied and shut me down once I was in operation.

Also it may not even be possible to skirt around the issue. The last two business current accounts I applied for required an in-person meeting to discuss my business, which both times touched on how my customers will pay me and how I will pay my suppliers.

If you're running a bitcoin-related business as a registered company in your jurisdiction I really think you need to have a good relationship with your bank.

Meh,

I sell bitcoin hardware by the 100s of K. My bank thinks I sell computer hardware, I do. Why would I tell them the hardware was bitcoin related?

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February 28, 2014, 08:36:56 AM
 #15

You wouldn't, I agree. I don't really consider that strongly bitcoin related.

Your customers are buying hardware that does something related to bitcoins. I was more thinking along the lines of businesses that sell and trade bitcoins for GBP.
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February 28, 2014, 08:43:30 AM
 #16

In Australia the best bet is to promise to only accept cash deposits.

That way there is zero risk of people claiming the transfers were stolen etc.

Might help.

You can still run into issues.  A high volume of cash deposits can in itself cause you to be deemed "high risk" under a bank's risk management policies (which they are required by law to have and implement).  "High risk" accounts aren't generally worth the administrative burden and compliance costs they incur for the bank.  A single fine in relation to activity on your account could cost them millions.

You need to understand that banks don't give a shit about what people do with their money.  They care about whether having you as a customer is going to expose them to liability and whether they're going to make a profit from having you as a customer (you're less desirable as a customer if servicing your account costs them more than servicing the account of another customer with a similar pattern and value of transactions).

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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February 28, 2014, 10:56:21 AM
 #17

I was Born in the UK, my brother still lives over there... We were just speaking about TSB and how they are doing a lot of under-the-table "hush-hush" deals to win customers over. So, if you haven't already, I'd suggest that you visit your nearest branch in person - rather than just giving them a phonecall. If you want to tell them what you're business really does that is up to you - I wouldn't - but there you go.

Another option would be one of the Crown Dependencies. As a UK citizen you have rights in those countries that allow you to bank there. Jersey, Isle of Man, Cayman Islands etc. I would go with a long established private bank rather than the usual HSBC's etc... Less questions asked, Less international interference, Zero Tax etc. This is probably your best bet but, again, I wouldn't tell them exactly what your business is - the less complicated YOU make things, the less complicated things will be
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February 28, 2014, 01:36:33 PM
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Ah its good to see all the responses. I thank you all for your support - I will try to reply to all of them in this message but it may take two

I'm hearing this a lot amongst us UK people. I do think it is a serious problem. Which banks have you tried?

I have tried Halifax, Lloyds, Barclays and Santander. I have not tried the others as I wish to change tactic a little.

fully understand.

You're a legend - thanks again.

In Australia the best bet is to promise to only accept cash deposits.

That way there is zero risk of people claiming the transfers were stolen etc.

Might help.

I believe this is a risk the banks would not be willing to take as there is high risk of money laundering. It is also unsuitable for my business model as I would significantly reduce my customer base.

I realise it is a lot to ask but is there maybe a chance that you could speak to your bank contact and ask them for other contacts within Halifax that would be willing to listen to small bitcoin business owners/entrepreneurs who have a solid business plan and now need a bank account?

At least then when the next thread comes up on this board of a UK business owner despairing at not being able to get banking (this is the second I've seen this week), we could say, "franky1 has some banking contacts who are at least willing to listen to you, ask them in PM for the details"

I admire your optimism but I doubt that one bank manager around the country is going to able to help a wealth of bitcoin related businesses. This is a systematic problem that has to be tackled head on.

Just don't tell them about bitcoin, simple. You don't have to lie, just skirt around the issue.

I was thinking of doing something similar, or changing my business plan accordingly and start introducing bitcoin at a later date. Maybe, just maybe. It still pees me off that one would have to go to one lengths - its not like I'm selling methamphetamine to kids.

I really would not advise this course of action if you're an honest businessperson (yes, I realise that banks are some of the most dishonest organisations in existence). This is a Mark Karpeles move.

I totally agree, I have never done a days dishonest business in my life and I really don't plan too.

You can still run into issues.  A high volume of cash deposits can in itself cause you to be deemed "high risk" under a bank's risk management policies (which they are required by law to have and implement).  "High risk" accounts aren't generally worth the administrative burden and compliance costs they incur for the bank.  A single fine in relation to activity on your account could cost them millions.

You need to understand that banks don't give a shit about what people do with their money.  They care about whether having you as a customer is going to expose them to liability and whether they're going to make a profit from having you as a customer (you're less desirable as a customer if servicing your account costs them more than servicing the account of another customer with a similar pattern and value of transactions).

You are bang on there my friend (but they DO give a shit about BITCOIN - this is the problem). The total fucking irony is that when I ran a business selling silver bullion the banks didn't give a shit - and the business model is exactly the same.

I was Born in the UK, my brother still lives over there... We were just speaking about TSB and how they are doing a lot of under-the-table "hush-hush" deals to win customers over. So, if you haven't already, I'd suggest that you visit your nearest branch in person - rather than just giving them a phonecall. If you want to tell them what you're business really does that is up to you - I wouldn't - but there you go.

Another option would be one of the Crown Dependencies. As a UK citizen you have rights in those countries that allow you to bank there. Jersey, Isle of Man, Cayman Islands etc. I would go with a long established private bank rather than the usual HSBC's etc... Less questions asked, Less international interference, Zero Tax etc. This is probably your best bet but, again, I wouldn't tell them exactly what your business is - the less complicated YOU make things, the less complicated things will be

The problem with going to branch is when they ask you you're turn over. I turned over 75k in a month and a half and whenever you state you turnover more then say 150k they instantly tell them you have to talk to there senior managers and you will have to book a meeting via telephone.

The crown dependencies is not an option for me. I sell to the British market, who want to be able to deposit it my bank account instantly and without charges. The crown dependencies will not offer me this benefit.



This is a huge problem in the UK and its one that needs to be addressed. Upon looking around at other people have have experience similar problems there seems to a reoccurring problem, not enough people complaining to make the powers address the issue fully. This is why I think we should get organised, so we can all send correspondence to the same people, sign petitions and do this the old fashioned way. It is the only way that will work (although it will take some time).
Aswan
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February 28, 2014, 01:38:40 PM
 #19

I am fed up with UK banks declining me for a business account for my trading business. I was wondering if anyone else has been met by the same firewall? I don't understand why residents of the UK, a free democratic society, can not conduct business in the order they see fit - as long as no EXISTING legislation prohibits these practices.

I don't understand why a UK company, in a free and democratic society, should not be allowed to conduct business in the order they see fit.
James-Cryptonomics (OP)
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February 28, 2014, 01:41:23 PM
 #20

I am fed up with UK banks declining me for a business account for my trading business. I was wondering if anyone else has been met by the same firewall? I don't understand why residents of the UK, a free democratic society, can not conduct business in the order they see fit - as long as no EXISTING legislation prohibits these practices.

I don't understand why a UK company, in a free and democratic society, should not be allowed to conduct business in the order they see fit.

Duly noted and changed. Want to be my grammar checker in the future  Wink ?
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