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Author Topic: "Web"steading  (Read 4071 times)
Rassah
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October 20, 2011, 07:12:52 PM
 #1

tl;dr modded libertarian/anarchy version of SecondLife based on Bitcoin instead of $L, to experiment with libertarian ideas in virtual space similar to what Seasteading wants to do on the ocean.

Long version:
I'm considering setting up a modified SecondLife server,  where the currency is bitcoin, the rules/laws are set up by the people, and administrator duties are only to keep it running, allowing the inhabitants to create their own contracts and settle their own disputes. Thoughts/ideas?

Some of mine that come to mind:
- Ideally this could be run through Tor/I2P, to help it exist entirely outside of any nation's laws (allow gambling, self-regulated financial markets, total freedom of expression, etc)
- Would like to have the server and client open-sourced (like the official one) in order to let people add features to deal with the unique issues, such as lack of "official" moderation
- Obviously since no one can be killed or hurt for real, or (in current client version) have their property seized, trolling will be a major issue that will have to be dealt with in more creative ways (customized ignore/ban lists, software enforced property contracts, etc?)
- Being completely unrestricted in design of the client, and the world itself, I could see this progressing technologically very quickly, if even just to create weapons, defensive systems, and contract enforcement software to protect against trolls and scammers.
- Things like property would have to be defined, i.e. are there copyright protections and do you pay for a copy of someone's creation, or is copying freely available, and you just pay for the physical storage needed to hold it in your inventory on the server. Currently LindenLabs runs all the servers from their own server farms and does not allow people to run personal servers out of fear that anyone entering their server can have all their stuff (clothing, gadgets, animations) copied and stolen. Without IP that wouldn't be an issue, and people will compete for the best private servers with most reliable and cheap inventory storage (which still needs physical storage). If copy protections are non-existant, then issues of running a lot of distributed personal servers as a connected mesh won't be a problem.

At the least this could be an interesting experiment/test bed for libertarian/anarcho-capitalist ideas. At most, it may end up creating it's own unique businesses and communities that exist as their own sovereign nation with its own bitcoin-based economy in the interwebs (what SecondLife was SUPPOSED to be, before the mods turned it into a totalitarian chat room). The best thing is that it won't require $100's of millions of initial investment for a floating city.

Thoughts/ideas/interests?

There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. Hybrid server-assisted clients like Electrum get a lot of their network information from centralized servers, but they also check the server's results using blockchain header data. This is perhaps somewhat more secure than either server-assisted clients or header-only clients.
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MoonShadow
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October 20, 2011, 07:59:11 PM
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1)  Second life is a game, and cannot have the kind of real incentives to have any real meaning to political philosphophies.

2)  Secon life is, from what I understand, already almost an anarchy.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Rassah
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October 20, 2011, 08:18:05 PM
 #3

1)  Second life is a game, and cannot have the kind of real incentives to have any real meaning to political philosphophies.

If by incentives you mean money, before the mods banned a slew of activities, SecondLife was quickly growing an economy based around entertainment and service businesses, as well as financial systems. There were casinos, clubs with paid performers, trivia games with cash incentives, escort services, meeting places with custom architectural designs and services, theaters where people could watch streamed movies together, security groups, sophisticated property defence weapons, banks, networked retail/POS systems, financial service providers such as lenders and accountants, and even the beginnings of an in game stock market, similar to the GLBSE. People were making real money in the game (I bought my $750 smart phone back in 2004 entirely from financial service business gains). In short, it was almost like a 3D version of bitcointalk.org with its own Bitcoin, before the mods reminded everyone that the forum and the currency are centrally controlled.

2)  Secon life is, from what I understand, already almost an anarchy.

Only in regards to what you can build and sell, and even then only to a point. Rules and regulations are still strictly enforced by the mods, all in game content and activities are regulated by US laws, and all gambling, financial services, and interest bearing accounts, as well as certain programs, are banned. That pretty much cut the beginnings of its economy just as it was about to explode. Having the place user-modded as opposed to whining to and depending on the mods, plus allowing people to set up their own laws and rules, should make it much more interesting, too.

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October 20, 2011, 08:23:50 PM
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If by incentives you mean money, before the mods banned a slew of activities, SecondLife was developing a slew of entertainment and service businesses, as well as financial systems. There were casinos, clubs with paid performers, trivia games with cash incentives, escort services, meeting places with custom architectural designs and services, theaters where people could watch streamed movies together, security groups, sophisticated property defence weapons, banks, networked retail systems, financial service providers such as lenders and accountants, and even the beginnings of an in game business stock market. People were making real money in the game (I bought my $750 smart phone back in 2004 entirely from financial service business gains).


Maybe that's what Web 3.0 will look like. A virtual simulated environment.

The problem though is that tor is way too slow.

BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 08:27:51 PM
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Maybe that's what Web 3.0 will look like. A virtual simulated environment.

The problem though is that tor is way too slow.

If you haven't already, check out Snow Crash by Neil Stephenson. The Metaverse is pretty much exactly that.
Rassah
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October 20, 2011, 08:30:13 PM
 #6

Maybe that's what Web 3.0 will look like. A virtual simulated environment.

The problem though is that tor is way too slow.

If you haven't already, check out Snow Crash by Neil Stephenson. The Metaverse is pretty much exactly that.

SecondLife was in fact inspired and based on Snow Crash, but I guess ran afoul of some laws and regulations when it grew too big.

The problem though is that tor is way too slow.

It would be annoyingly slow, but not impossibly so. Any ideas for how to get around that issue? Maybe have an open Tor node in every client to help increase the number of active nodes?
On that same topic, I really wish I could help the Tor project by running my own node, but I don't want FBI beating down my door cause someone used my server to access CP Sad Anyone have any recommendations?

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October 20, 2011, 08:40:27 PM
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It would be annoyingly slow, but not impossibly so. Any ideas for how to get around that issue? Maybe have an open Tor node in every client to help increase the number of active nodes?
On that same topic, I really wish I could help the Tor project by running my own node, but I don't want FBI beating down my door cause someone used my server to access CP Sad Anyone have any recommendations?

Something like I2P is probably a better model for such an Internet 2.0.

I haven't used it much, but my understanding is that it's a lot faster than Tor, and more secure as well.
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October 20, 2011, 08:44:38 PM
 #8

Just realized, a lot of bitcoiners would likely not use the system, using their graphics cards to mine instead  Roll Eyes

So, project closed due to non-interest!  Angry


Nah, kidding  Grin. I'll likely play with it as a hobby whether there's interest or not. Keep the ideas/suggestions coming!

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October 20, 2011, 08:48:19 PM
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1)  Second life is a game, and cannot have the kind of real incentives to have any real meaning to political philosphophies.

If by incentives you mean money,


No I don't.  Monetary incentives are the easy part.


"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Rassah
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October 20, 2011, 09:02:32 PM
 #10

No I don't.  Monetary incentives are the easy part.

Building reputation? Accumulating wealth-producing businesses? Acquiring property? Establishing markets and commerce?Setting up a secure residence where you can do with friends what you want without government interference? Aside from owning physical items (though if a black market like Silk Road forms on there...), and having physical interractions, I can't think of other incentives. But I would see this project as a sort of simulation, where the libertarian ideas can be tested out without threats or huge initial financial risks. Sort of like play money used to learn about stock markets.

BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 09:22:12 PM
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No I don't.  Monetary incentives are the easy part.

Building reputation? Accumulating wealth-producing businesses? Acquiring property? Establishing markets and commerce?Setting up a secure residence where you can do with friends what you want without government interference? Aside from owning physical items (though if a black market like Silk Road forms on there...), and having physical interractions, I can't think of other incentives. But I would see this project as a sort of simulation, where the libertarian ideas can be tested out without threats or huge initial financial risks. Sort of like play money used to learn about stock markets.

I play games to get away from reality, not simulate it.
Rassah
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October 20, 2011, 09:34:36 PM
 #12

No I don't.  Monetary incentives are the easy part.

Building reputation? Accumulating wealth-producing businesses? Acquiring property? Establishing markets and commerce?Setting up a secure residence where you can do with friends what you want without government interference? Aside from owning physical items (though if a black market like Silk Road forms on there...), and having physical interractions, I can't think of other incentives. But I would see this project as a sort of simulation, where the libertarian ideas can be tested out without threats or huge initial financial risks. Sort of like play money used to learn about stock markets.

I play games to get away from reality, not simulate it.

Again, not saying this will be a game (neither is SeconLife, really). It's a simulation of a political society and economy, where you are free to experiment with your ideas and creativity in a more safe environment, same as on this forum, but with more true-to-life simulation possibilities. I think as a platform it really can be a cheaper online-only alternative to seasteading. (Besides, plenty of non reality in current SL already). I actually quit playing SL a while ago because it really did just turn into a glorified 3D chatroom. I'm hoping something similar with more freedom and real money would be more interesting.

BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 09:54:19 PM
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Again, not saying this will be a game (neither is SeconLife, really). It's a simulation of a political society and economy, where you are free to experiment with your ideas and creativity in a more safe environment, same as on this forum, but with more true-to-life simulation possibilities. I think as a platform it really can be a cheaper online-only alternative to seasteading. (Besides, plenty of non reality in current SL already). I actually quit playing SL a while ago because it really did just turn into a glorified 3D chatroom. I'm hoping something similar with more freedom and real money would be more interesting.

I really think the only thing that draws people to platforms such as that is that they do not simulate reality. Do you want to go to your job for 8 hours every day and then go home and do your simulated job for another few hours?
Rassah
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October 20, 2011, 10:15:37 PM
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Again, not saying this will be a game (neither is SeconLife, really). It's a simulation of a political society and economy, where you are free to experiment with your ideas and creativity in a more safe environment, same as on this forum, but with more true-to-life simulation possibilities. I think as a platform it really can be a cheaper online-only alternative to seasteading. (Besides, plenty of non reality in current SL already). I actually quit playing SL a while ago because it really did just turn into a glorified 3D chatroom. I'm hoping something similar with more freedom and real money would be more interesting.

I really think the only thing that draws people to platforms such as that is that they do not simulate reality. Do you want to go to your job for 8 hours every day and then go home and do your simulated job for another few hours?

Considering reality is a government run and regulated world, being a place where you can escape statism and hang out in a virtual libertopia will sort of be the point here. And since I would want it to run on bitcoin instead of centrally controlled game money, maybe if you're good enough, your second, in-game job is all you'll need? For me, it would be fun just to explore the possibilities we've been talking about here. Setting up some sort of contract and reputation system, debating and establishing our own system of legal arbitration, seeing what kinds of creative ways people can make money off of their IP, figuring out how property can even exist in a virtual digital environment, writing software to protect or attack people's property and privacy to outwit the competing security groups, or even just hanging out in a totally lawles Wild West environment. A chance of seeing how the Seasteading project may evolve without the risk of a real city sinking in flames. Really just a forum like this, with more possibility of implementing the ideas. Kinda far from reality...

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October 20, 2011, 10:21:01 PM
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I don't think you can build virtual freedom on top of real slavery. At the end of the day, you're still subject to the whims of whatever state you reside in. I just think our time is better spent trying to live as free as we can in the real world, instead of a virtual one.

Then again, this says I who argue about the nature of the state with strangers on the internet.
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I never hashed for this...


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October 20, 2011, 10:22:49 PM
 #16

tl;dr modded libertarian/anarchy version of SecondLife based on Bitcoin instead of $L, to experiment with libertarian ideas in virtual space similar to what Seasteading wants to do on the ocean.

Long version:
I'm considering setting up a modified SecondLife server,  where the currency is bitcoin, the rules/laws are set up by the people, and administrator duties are only to keep it running, allowing the inhabitants to create their own contracts and settle their own disputes. Thoughts/ideas?
SecondLife has little appeal to anyone anymore besides furry sex roleplayers


Some of mine that come to mind:
- Ideally this could be run through Tor/I2P, to help it exist entirely outside of any nation's laws (allow gambling, self-regulated financial markets, total freedom of expression, etc)
The latency implications of this and how much it will choke your CPU's time made me cringe.

- Would like to have the server and client open-sourced (like the official one) in order to let people add features to deal with the unique issues, such as lack of "official" moderation
Even building on older open-source options, this is a hell of an undertaking.

- Obviously since no one can be killed or hurt for real, or (in current client version) have their property seized, trolling will be a major issue that will have to be dealt with in more creative ways (customized ignore/ban lists, software enforced property contracts, etc?)
- Being completely unrestricted in design of the client, and the world itself, I could see this progressing technologically very quickly, if even just to create weapons, defensive systems, and contract enforcement software to protect against trolls and scammers.
- Things like property would have to be defined, i.e. are there copyright protections and do you pay for a copy of someone's creation, or is copying freely available, and you just pay for the physical storage needed to hold it in your inventory on the server. Currently LindenLabs runs all the servers from their own server farms and does not allow people to run personal servers out of fear that anyone entering their server can have all their stuff (clothing, gadgets, animations) copied and stolen. Without IP that wouldn't be an issue, and people will compete for the best private servers with most reliable and cheap inventory storage (which still needs physical storage). If copy protections are non-existant, then issues of running a lot of distributed personal servers as a connected mesh won't be a problem.

At the least this could be an interesting experiment/test bed for libertarian/anarcho-capitalist ideas. At most, it may end up creating it's own unique businesses and communities that exist as their own sovereign nation with its own bitcoin-based economy in the interwebs (what SecondLife was SUPPOSED to be, before the mods turned it into a totalitarian chat room). The best thing is that it won't require $100's of millions of initial investment for a floating city.

Thoughts/ideas/interests?


Sounds like a mess, just being honest
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October 20, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
 #17

I don't think you can build virtual freedom on top of real slavery. At the end of the day, you're still subject to the whims of whatever state you reside in. I just think our time is better spent trying to live as free as we can in the real world, instead of a virtual one.

Then again, this says I who argue about the nature of the state with strangers on the internet.

Yeah, pretty much this; escapism is fun as a distraction but this is just too much, technical limits non-wthstanding
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October 20, 2011, 10:44:52 PM
 #18

I'd love to see I2P support on something like this, at least for the experimental value. Also, how about OpenSimulator (don't know much about it, just asking)?
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October 20, 2011, 11:03:37 PM
 #19

I don't get it. Who would use such a frivolous piece of internet-waste?

It will not be an experiment in anything, because it is not real life. I would have no qualms about getting on your bitlife servers and raping and pillaging and scamming as there are no implications. I would never consider such behavior in the real world, as it is not some imaginary libertopia.

Self governance doesn't work. Look at somalia or any other warlord controlled nation.

▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
▓▓ ONEDICE.ME ▓▓▓▓▓ BEST DICE EXPERIENCE ▓▓▓▓ PLAY OR INVEST ▓▓▓▓▓▓
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BitterTea
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October 20, 2011, 11:16:23 PM
 #20

raping and pillaging and scamming as there are no implications. I would never consider such behavior in the real world, as it is not some imaginary libertopia.

Self governance doesn't work. Look at somalia or any other warlord controlled nation.

*facepalm*

So, what is the reason you "would never consider such behavior"? Do you forego rape and pillage because the government forces you to? Or perhaps it's that you think yourself superior in your lack of desire to do so, when in fact most people feel the same way. Those "rape and pillage" types, guess what they're attracted to - power. The same centralized power you say we need in order to protect us from rape and pillage.
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