European bank accounts of exchanges are frozen

[S3052]

I agree with you.

And also: Exchanging fiat <--> must be much more secure and easier for everybody.

[1715380496]

1715380496

[1715380496]

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[tvbcof]

...
And also: Exchanging fiat <--> must be much more secure and easier for everybody.

If I felt that that was a requirement (vs. a nice-to-have), I would consider Bitcoin to be walking dead.  Any maybe it is.  Who knows?

[Technomage]

If I felt that that was a requirement (vs. a nice-to-have), I would consider Bitcoin to be walking dead.  Any maybe it is.  Who knows?

I don't think it's a requirement for Bitcoin to function, especially with the possibilities of decentralized p2p dark exchanges, and of course there are other methods as well. But if exchanging isn't 1) very secure and 2) very easy, it will stop Bitcoin adoption entirely. There will still be small adoption from certain segments but anyone who's a "regular joe" is not going to have anything to do with Bitcoin.

And this will mean that Bitcoin will remain as a niche of a niche. Which also means that one Bitcoin will not be worth very much when people realize this, because the value of Bitcoins is mostly supported by speculative demand.

That's the worst case. What I'm certainly hoping for is that the exchanges get proper licences, accept regulation and start to be more reliable. It's totally unacceptable that we have exchanges announcing every week that "deposit method x is unavailable". This is not how reliable exchanges work. I'm expecting big, positive announcements from the main exchanges during November. If not, I will be disappointed and remain bearish.

[cypherdoc]

If I felt that that was a requirement (vs. a nice-to-have), I would consider Bitcoin to be walking dead.  Any maybe it is.  Who knows?

I don't think it's a requirement for Bitcoin to function, especially with the possibilities of decentralized p2p dark exchanges, and of course there are other methods as well. But if exchanging isn't 1) very secure and 2) very easy, it will stop Bitcoin adoption entirely. There will still be small adoption from certain segments but anyone who's a "regular joe" is not going to have anything to do with Bitcoin.

And this will mean that Bitcoin will remain as a niche of a niche. Which also means that one Bitcoin will not be worth very much when people realize this, because the value of Bitcoins is mostly supported by speculative demand.

That's the worst case. What I'm certainly hoping for is that the exchanges get proper licences, accept regulation and start to be more reliable. It's totally unacceptable that we have exchanges announcing every week that "deposit method x is unavailable". This is not how reliable exchanges work. I'm expecting big, positive announcements from the main exchanges during November. If not, I will be disappointed and remain bearish.

But would you expect regulatory authorities to be impartial and fair to Bitcoin exchanges?  look what happened to Amir Taaki and Intersango.  he says the bankers have led him on and cost him thousands in his attempt to become accepted into the shark club.  i don't think it happens and even if it did, a year from acceptance he could be shut down.

[tvbcof]

If I felt that that was a requirement (vs. a nice-to-have), I would consider Bitcoin to be walking dead.  Any maybe it is.  Who knows?

I don't think it's a requirement for Bitcoin to function, especially with the possibilities of decentralized p2p dark exchanges, and of course there are other methods as well. But if exchanging isn't 1) very secure and 2) very easy, it will stop Bitcoin adoption entirely. There will still be small adoption from certain segments but anyone who's a "regular joe" is not going to have anything to do with Bitcoin.

And this will mean that Bitcoin will remain as a niche of a niche. Which also means that one Bitcoin will not be worth very much when people realize this, because the value of Bitcoins is mostly supported by speculative demand.

That's the worst case. What I'm certainly hoping for is that the exchanges get proper licences, accept regulation and start to be more reliable. It's totally unacceptable that we have exchanges announcing every week that "deposit method x is unavailable". This is not how reliable exchanges work. I'm expecting big, positive announcements from the main exchanges during November. If not, I will be disappointed and remain bearish.

More and more this whole 'go mainstream' thing reminds me of Jemima Puddle Duck:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Jemima_Puddle-Duck

...where Bitcoin is Jemima...

[Technomage]

But would you expect regulatory authorities to be impartial and fair to Bitcoin exchanges?  look what happened to Amir Taaki and Intersango.  he says the bankers have led him on and cost him thousands in his attempt to become accepted into the shark club.  i don't think it happens and even if it did, a year from acceptance he could be shut down.

This is a good point and I honestly don't know anything regarding the details of bank and money exchange regulation in Europe. But I'm very skeptical of stories about the "elite banking cartel" shutting down Bitcoin exchanges. To them Bitcoin is currently entirely insignificant. What I'm seeing here is amateur players (the exchanges) trying to do something which is not in line with European rules and regulations. It's most likely that simple. Either they get in line or they will continue to have major issues.

As of now the exchanges completely deserve getting bank accounts frozen, it's 100% their fault if they're not following the regulations. I call bullshit on any claims that the banks are trying to discredit Bitcoin intentionally, most likely they're simply unsure of the legal status it has or will have in the EU. Bitcoin is way too small to be a threat to the banking business at the moment.

If there really is this prestigious club you must enter to do anything and people like Amir are being fucked over, everyone in the Bitcoin community needs to know. And there must be proof. That would be a completely outrage. This is the first time I've heard about this but my view in general is that the exchanges are way over their heads and need to put serious resources into these matters.

[Technomage]

More and more this whole 'go mainstream' thing reminds me of Jemima Puddle Duck:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Jemima_Puddle-Duck

...where Bitcoin is Jemima...

There is going mainstream and going nowhere. When I talk about going mainstream I don't mean challenging the banks, PayPal, Visa and Mastercard. That would require much, much more than simply reliable exchanges. What I mean is that for Bitcoin to go anywhere other than the dreams of liberal/anarchist geeks, exchanging has to be something other than underground message boards or face to face deals, or even a decentralized p2p dark exchange.

I'm not saying Bitcoin wouldn't work because it would still have usage and small demand. But any large growth would be out of the question. That scenario is not the death of Bitcoin but it would stay very small.

Overall I'm optimistic concerning this issue, for many reasons. I don't believe evil bankers are intentionally trying to kill Bitcoin. And I believe it's in the best interest of the exchanges (more customers, more transactions and more profit) to find out how their customers can deposit and withdraw in ways that are legal, reliable, easy, fast and cheap. So I think that if the exchanges know what's best for them, they will do everything they can to solve this problem.

[tvbcof]

More and more this whole 'go mainstream' thing reminds me of Jemima Puddle Duck:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Jemima_Puddle-Duck

...where Bitcoin is Jemima...

There is going mainstream and going nowhere. When I talk about going mainstream I don't mean challenging the banks, PayPal, Visa and Mastercard. That would require much, much more than simply reliable exchanges. What I mean is that for Bitcoin to go anywhere other than the dreams of liberal/anarchist geeks, exchanging has to be something other than underground message boards or face to face deals, or even a decentralized p2p dark exchange.

I would and do like to see some amount of impulse driving development of these 'dark grey' modes of operation.  OTOH, I also like the warm fuzzy safety of 'mainstream' exchanges and it is the primary method I use to obtain BTC at this time.

I'm not saying Bitcoin wouldn't work because it would still have usage and small demand. But any large growth would be out of the question. That scenario is not the death of Bitcoin but it would stay very small.

It is my nature to try to step back and ask myself 'so what'?  When I do so here, I see some legitimate arguments that such a scenerio is actually just fine for some of the following reasons:

 - less motivation to attack the system by those who might find it to be competition.

 - more time for the system to be field tested and hardened.

 - more of the currency base likely to be sucked up by people with a general interest vs. those trying to make a quick buck.

 - participants less likely to be ripped off (as they would tend to be more knowledgeable.)

I've not invested anything that I cannot afford to lose, and my expectation for a pay-off for this (or most of my other 'investments') is measured in years or decades.  This probably shapes my philosophy and makes it differ from your run-of-the-mill day-trader.

Overall I'm optimistic concerning this issue, for many reasons. I don't believe evil bankers are intentionally trying to kill Bitcoin. And I believe it's in the best interest of the exchanges (more customers, more transactions and more profit) to find out how their customers can deposit and withdraw in ways that are legal, reliable, easy, fast and cheap. So I think that if the exchanges know what's best for them, they will do everything they can to solve this problem.

I'm optimistic enough to hold the BTC I have and probably to accumulate more as the opportunities present themselves, and to put some effort into certain developments associated with Bitcoin.  If it goes well and everything is rosy trading chips between official debt-based systems and Bitcoin, great.  If there are problems in this area, Bitcoin may do OK anyway.  I still consider the most likely scenerio as one being where Bitcoin fails completely for one of a number of possible reasons.  I'm prepared for that, but am also prepared to fight against that happening.

[Technomage]

I would and do like to see some amount of impulse driving development of these 'dark grey' modes of operation.  OTOH, I also like the warm fuzzy safety of 'mainstream' exchanges and it is the primary method I use to obtain BTC at this time.

I agree.

It is my nature to try to step back and ask myself 'so what'?  When I do so here, I see some legitimate arguments that such a scenerio is actually just fine for some of the following reasons:

 - less motivation to attack the system by those who might find it to be competition.

 - more time for the system to be field tested and hardened.

 - more of the currency base likely to be sucked up by people with a general interest vs. those trying to make a quick buck.

 - participants less likely to be ripped off (as they would tend to be more knowledgeable.)

You make good points here, I also see the potential benefits of staying small. But then again I'm a starting Bitcoin enterpreneur and my business is not going to do very well if Bitcoin goes more underground. In fact it must grow during the next few years for my business to survive. I know that Bitcoin is not there to take care of my business, but what I'm going to be doing is core services for Bitcoin users and companies/organizations that want to start accepting Bitcoin.

But I have a strong feeling that if Bitcoin is going to go somewhere, it'll happen within the next 2 years. We'll see how it goes, our first real challenge has been the security of core 3rd party services which is an ongoing effort. I call moderate success on that one. The second challenge which is in my opinion a bigger one, is how to handle money exchange in a way that'll be legal and reliable in the long term.

I've not invested anything that I cannot afford to lose, and my expectation for a pay-off for this (or most of my other 'investments') is measured in years or decades.  This probably shapes my philosophy and makes it differ from your run-of-the-mill day-trader.

I haven't invested anything I can't afford to lose either. I'm actually not a day-trader at all, although I've been trading quite a bit recently. This is simply because of the instability of Bitcoin's value. If the price can drop 50% just like that, and it still can, I have to consider the fact that if I buy when it's 50% down, I then hold double the Bitcoins. So my strategy for investing in coins is actually very long term, the same strategy as I have for my gold investments. But recently I've decided to trade until I see sufficient confirmations that the price has indeed reached a long-term bottom. When that happens I'm back to a long-term strategy.

My interests in Bitcoin are far and wide. I have mining rigs and I'm investing and occasionally trading as well. And as I already said I'm starting a Bitcoin company right now, which will be a company based in Finland and focusing on Finland but it will also compete internationally in some aspects of the business. My idea is to build a community site for Bitcoin users (Finnish users in the beginning) and provide core services similar to bitpay and get-bitcoin.com. I will also be a seller of goods such as Bitcoin-related t-shirts and my plan is to be a local casascius reseller. And this is only what I have in mind for 2012, who knows what I'll come up with in a few years if Bitcoin doesn't die out

I'm optimistic enough to hold the BTC I have and probably to accumulate more as the opportunities present themselves, and to put some effort into certain developments associated with Bitcoin.  If it goes well and everything is rosy trading chips between official debt-based systems and Bitcoin, great.  If there are problems in this area, Bitcoin may do OK anyway.  I still consider the most likely scenerio as one being where Bitcoin fails completely for one of a number of possible reasons.  I'm prepared for that, but am also prepared to fight against that happening.

+1

I think that cryptocurrencies are not going away, but it's not certain if Bitcoin, as the first real implementation, is going to be the cryptocurrency in the long term. It has the distinct advantage of being well known and the first, so it has a good chance of succeeding as long as it stays reliable in a technical sense.

[skilo]

HAHAHA ROFLCOPTER ROFLCOPTER.

I would love to see someone try to "Regulate" or "Tax" bitcoins.  

Good luck keeping track of that ginoumous block chain! hahahaha bwaaaahahahaha.

They can regulate exchanges, they can regulate the coders.  You think you are safe behind your cryptography Maginot Line - but it's only your limited imagination.  

I don't say I am surprised - but it certainly is disconcerting to see that the subject of potential weaknesses of the bitcoin system is such a taboo here.

So the exchanges can just go underground and host on i2p or TOR, Kinda hard to regulate a website when you dont know where the hell its even hosted lol.

Regulate the coders? now thats funny.

I feel pretty safe with bitcoin.