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Author Topic: Concise Summary of Mt. Gox Problem and whether we should be concerned  (Read 1356 times)
oatmo
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February 28, 2014, 05:53:36 PM
 #1

I haven't been on the forum in a while, and looked around. I apologize if this has already been answered, and if it has, please point me to the thread.

Can someone post a concise answer as to the exact problem with Mt. Gox and whether the others have the problem or not.

Please correct me. From what I can see:

1. The Bitcoin protocol has a transaction ID, which can be changed shortly after transaction initiation (but not after the transaction is confirmed?)
2. Mt. Gox used this transaction ID for their internal accounting, while others claim that they do not use it to identify transactions.
3. Mt. Gox customers would do a withdrawl, change the transaction ID, then complain to customer service that they didn't receive their coins. The Mt. Gox system was fooled because of using the transaction ID, and then customer service would send the coins again.

So:

1) This is known in the bitcoin software.
2) Proper accounting systems do not use the transaction ID to track payouts.

No known other exchanges have the problem (or if they do, they're not saying).

Please correct me and add any other pertinent information.

Thanks,

Oatmo
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grifferz
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February 28, 2014, 06:15:11 PM
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Can someone post a concise answer as to the exact problem with Mt. Gox and whether the others have the problem or not.
Before that, please just be aware that transaction malleability is considered undesirable and irritating, but as far as we know everyone checked their systems weren't affected by it and moved on a long time ago.

Everyone except MtGox, who blamed it for their extensive downtime and continue to blame it for a massive loss of their btc funds. We currently have no way to know if those claims are genuine. The pattern you should be getting here is of consistent failure and lack of followup by MtGox.

1. The Bitcoin protocol has a transaction ID, which can be changed shortly after transaction initiation (but not after the transaction is confirmed?)
Correct.

2. Mt. Gox used this transaction ID for their internal accounting, while others claim that they do not use it to identify transactions.
Correct.

Some exchanges and other bitcoin services halted withdrawals, either to check their implementations or to fix their implementations. They were back in operation within a couple of days.

3. Mt. Gox customers would do a withdrawl, change the transaction ID, then complain to customer service that they didn't receive their coins. The Mt. Gox system was fooled because of using the transaction ID, and then customer service would send the coins again.
We don't know exactly how any scam at MtGox worked, because no one has put out a statement yet. There have been some rumours that MtGox has, through its poor implementation, consistently had problems creating valid transactions, so they lashed together an automated resubmit of any transaction that they thought had failed, thus enabling a massive draining of funds via transaction malleability. This is hearsay.

Karpeles has claimed that 750k BTC have been stolen. He hasn't said if they were stolen through transaction malleability. This is obviously a fantastically large amount of BTC to lose by any means. But MtGox has lost a further 500,000 to thieves in the past. The community never got a straight answer over that either.

1) This is known in the bitcoin software.
2) Proper accounting systems do not use the transaction ID to track payouts.
It was known about for several years but not really considered important. Once MtGox mentioned that it was a problem, someone began indiscriminately attacking the network with mutated transactions which caused failed transactions for a lot of people, and then people took it more seriously, and fixed their stuff.

It's impossible to say there are no bugs in software. Even software you have the source of.

No known other exchanges have the problem (or if they do, they're not saying).
They shouldn't do, as they all had opportunity to check by now. But malleability is not the main problem with MtGox or any other exchange or service provider. The problem is they're completely unregulated and you have to trust them with your bitcoins. They can shut down at any time and take your bitcoins. Or claim they are the victim of theft.

Malleability is just what MtGox are using as an excuse today. Even if transaction malleability was used to steal from them, 750k BTC over a period of years should have been noticed. Should have been noticed monthly if not daily. Keeping a ledger is basic business 101 at a corner store level, not a $100mil currency exchange.

Here is more from Andreas M. Antonopoulos:

http://antonopoulos.com/2014/02/25/statement-on-mt-gox/
Stevets
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February 28, 2014, 06:19:35 PM
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Faulty software in MtGox's custom cold storage has resulted in 1.75 million inaccessible coins. Probably they will never be recovered but people are working very hard on this. This one of the reasons you will see the price surge. Of course, if the lost coins are recovered, that will cause a correction.
bananas
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February 28, 2014, 06:27:00 PM
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We don't know exactly how any scam at MtGox worked, because no one has put out a statement yet. There have been some rumours that MtGox has, through its poor implementation, consistently had problems creating valid transactions, so they lashed together an automated resubmit of any transaction that they thought had failed, thus enabling a massive draining of funds via transaction malleability. This is hearsay.


Not possible, he is not ignorant regarding bitcoin and if he were his friends on bitcoin github and bitcoin foundation are not.  The malleability thing is BS.
James-Cryptonomics
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February 28, 2014, 06:48:59 PM
 #5

Concise Summary of Mt. Gox

They may have lost all your bitcoins.

Should we be concerned?

Yes

The End

“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandhi

Website: cryptonomics.io/       Twitter: twitter.com/CryptonomicsUK Email: hello@cryptonomics.io
DannyHamilton
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February 28, 2014, 07:02:37 PM
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Faulty software in MtGox's custom cold storage has resulted in 1.75 million inaccessible coins. Probably they will never be recovered but people are working very hard on this. This one of the reasons you will see the price surge. Of course, if the lost coins are recovered, that will cause a correction.

No.

That doesn't appear to be true.  You seem to be making things up out of your own imagination rather than paying attention to real facts.

Stevets
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March 02, 2014, 01:36:25 AM
 #7

Faulty software in MtGox's custom cold storage has resulted in 1.75 million inaccessible coins. Probably they will never be recovered but people are working very hard on this. This one of the reasons you will see the price surge. Of course, if the lost coins are recovered, that will cause a correction.

No.

That doesn't appear to be true.  You seem to be making things up out of your own imagination rather than paying attention to real facts.

Nope. It's all true. I read it on the Internet. But seriously... who knows for sure outside of MtGox.... I have heard differing estimates on the number of coins missing. I don't buy the stolen through malleability excuse. Lost due to fucked up programming and business process is the most realistic explanation. So what do you think happened? Stolen?
Bit_Happy
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March 02, 2014, 01:40:41 AM
 #8

....
Please correct me and add any other pertinent information.
....

The US Gov might have control of the cold storage (related to Silk Road case), and Mark might not be allowed to talk about it (gag order)
We have assumed control...
samsonn25
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March 02, 2014, 01:50:02 AM
 #9

Even Hitler is not happy at Karpeles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6phynr2fdVU
pascal257
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March 02, 2014, 11:13:18 AM
 #10

....
Please correct me and add any other pertinent information.
....

The US Gov might have control of the cold storage (related to Silk Road case), and Mark might not be allowed to talk about it (gag order)
We have assumed control...
Why do people always think that the US is the world police? Mtgox is based in Japan, so as long as Karpeles doesn't give two shits, they have no way in gaining control of the cold storage nor does any gag order effect him.
oatmo
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March 03, 2014, 05:17:58 PM
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....
Please correct me and add any other pertinent information.
....

The US Gov might have control of the cold storage (related to Silk Road case), and Mark might not be allowed to talk about it (gag order)
We have assumed control...

What does the US Government have to do with this. This is a Japanese company with proceedings in a Japanese bankruptcy court. It also seems that the U.S. government doesn't recognize bitcoin as worth anything at all, so it seems doubtful that they would even investigate. Am I missing something?
oatmo
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March 03, 2014, 05:18:59 PM
 #12



Thanks for the info. That helps.

Oatmo
DannyHamilton
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March 03, 2014, 07:36:19 PM
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It also seems that the U.S. government doesn't recognize bitcoin as worth anything at all, so it seems doubtful that they would even investigate. Am I missing something?

And yet they are prosecuting Trendon Shavers?

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