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Question: Would you support a change to bitcoin that would make 50BTC the standard reward for a block, forever?
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Author Topic: Would you support moving to a system with controled inflation?  (Read 11823 times)
ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 27, 2011, 06:21:01 AM
 #41


Every argument I have seen, which purports to 'fix' Bitcoin for some economic reason or other seems also to make a presumption that there will be only one; and therefore must be 'perfected' to protect it from one limitation or other. This is the case with arguments about fees, and therefore block size limits, as well as the cases made for various inflation rates, or rates of extinguishing inflation.

I think it's fair to say that an important control that WILL need to be tweaked at some point is that maximum block size or else growth is unsustainable - there is no "free market" control on that number, something has to be done about it eventually.  Shall we procrastinate it until it becomes a huge problem?

This is not an economic problem, it is a technical problem partly tied to economics.  There exists no rational economic incentive to continue mining beyond the minting of new coins, because miners have no way to compel payers to pay a fee that makes mining worthwhile.  There is no way to achieve equilibrium.  

LOL, there exists no incentive given that EVEN NOW people are paying fees even if THEY DON'T HAVE TO ? I call bullshit.

I think that you are saying this only because you have certain interest in saying so.

Bitcoin was created exactly because of there is practical inflation in all normal (fiat) currencies, and now you are telling me that we should bring back the same shit we just escaped from  ?
Sorry, I don't think this is going to happen.

I also think the poll results clearly show what is the public opinion on this.

Please just take this inflationary bullshit with you and make a damn fork - we shall see what people choose. I will surely choose a currency that promises that tomorrow's bread will be always cheaper than today's bread. I don't see a point in my money being taxed.

----
This discussion itself is bullshit. Just create the damn fork and let the market decide. That is better option than making a poll.

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March 27, 2011, 07:33:00 AM
 #42

This discussion itself is bullshit. Just create the damn fork and let the market decide. That is better option than making a poll.

+10

Well said, ShadowOfHarbinger, to that and all I omitted. Whether or not casascius has ulterior motives (a definite possibility), their arguments fold in on themselves.

As for me, I am not so cynical as to believe people are naturally selfish to the point of self-harm. (For neglecting the network would amount to self-harm.) Such people do exist, but the majority are not like that. It's this assumption that Satoshi's system is based on. I think it's a good call.
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March 27, 2011, 08:04:46 AM
 #43

This discussion itself is bullshit. Just create the damn fork and let the market decide. That is better option than making a poll.

I strongly disagree. I think it's pretty clear from the poll that the majority is for keeping the current system, so there's really no point in forking the blockchain. One thing we really don't want to do is to fragment the community.

However, I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it? I find this discussion pretty interesting, and we're going to have to have it at one point or another as bitcoin becomes more popular. I find your insistence not to have this discussion pretty disturbing to say the least.
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March 27, 2011, 09:57:56 AM
 #44

This discussion itself is bullshit. Just create the damn fork and let the market decide. That is better option than making a poll.

I strongly disagree. I think it's pretty clear from the poll that the majority is for keeping the current system, so there's really no point in forking the blockchain. One thing we really don't want to do is to fragment the community.

However, I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it? I find this discussion pretty interesting, and we're going to have to have it at one point or another as bitcoin becomes more popular. I find your insistence not to have this discussion pretty disturbing to say the least.

I don't know, I think that in this case a fork would be the only way the inflationary minority could try out their system. Discussing it is fine, obviously. I think ShadowOfHarbinger is just frustrated. If you have anything new to add to the discussion, say it. I don't think arguing for the trunk to go inflationary is going to get anywhere, though. As was said before, the deflationary model is a great attraction for a lot of the people here.
ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 27, 2011, 10:25:18 AM
 #45

This discussion itself is bullshit. Just create the damn fork and let the market decide. That is better option than making a poll.

I strongly disagree. I think it's pretty clear from the poll that the majority is for keeping the current system, so there's really no point in forking the blockchain. One thing we really don't want to do is to fragment the community.

1. There is completely no problem in creating a fork. If you are on this forum, you should be a believer in free market rules. So I am saying free market is the thing that will decide who is right in the quickest, most obvious way.
Also, it will only fragment the community for a short time, but after that, when all doubts will be resolved, Bitcoin will be stronger than ever.
"Things that don't kill you, make you stronger".

However, I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it? I find this discussion pretty interesting, and we're going to have to have it at one point or another as bitcoin becomes more popular. I find your insistence not to have this discussion pretty disturbing to say the least.

2. The discussion is simply not an effective way to decide who is right. The free market decides who is right.

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March 27, 2011, 11:27:44 AM
 #46

I strongly disagree. I think it's pretty clear from the poll that the majority is for keeping the current system, so there's really no point in forking the blockchain.

Free software organisations are not democratic.  When someone doesn't agree with the majority, he doesn't have to "obey".  He can just fork the sotfware.  Democracy is not freedom, it's dictatorship of the majority towards minority.   Fortunately it doesn't prevail in FOSS.
marcus_of_augustus
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March 27, 2011, 01:58:18 PM
 #47

Haven't read every post but some numbers I've been watching and pondering separately may add to the discussion:

Current coins in circulation 5.7mill, average 24hr transactions around 200-250K ... or about 1500BTC per block.
http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/
with current exchange rates to "real world" monies that people use to buy mining gear and electricity with it is currently profitable on 50 BTC per block.

So extrapolating out to 21mill BTC in circulation, with similar money velocity as now, is about 800-850K per 24hr, or about 5700 BTC per block on a rolling average. Interestingly, if you assume a sensible round number average fee of 1% you get 57BTC per block for fees in the mature bitcoin economy .... hmmmm.

Recall that due to the deflationary nature of the beast, and the divisibility (2.1e15 satoshis), 800K BTC per day in transactions could represent the combined wealth transfers and economic activity of who knows how many millions of people. So that even a 0.01% average fee (6BTC per block) may easily incentivise quite substantial future mining rigs.

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March 27, 2011, 02:45:47 PM
 #48

I strongly disagree. I think it's pretty clear from the poll that the majority is for keeping the current system, so there's really no point in forking the blockchain.

Free software organisations are not democratic.  When someone doesn't agree with the majority, he doesn't have to "obey".  He can just fork the sotfware.  Democracy is not freedom, it's dictatorship of the majority towards minority.   Fortunately it doesn't prevail in FOSS.


The Democracy point you make is apropos, True Democracy is anarchy, in the process of forming groups before an inevitable separation.

Republics are a better system for unity. Democracy promotes individuals, which degrade into several groups, the group with the most power rules. It is in essence minority rule, until the ruling party pisses off a majority of the other groups.

Your point about forking the software is just the process of creating other groups within democracy. The rules for forking the software are still there, there is a process that must be followed. However, there is a feeling of freedom that has been lost IRL. And it does feel Good and Right.

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MoonShadow
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March 27, 2011, 02:54:53 PM
 #49

I strongly disagree. I think it's pretty clear from the poll that the majority is for keeping the current system, so there's really no point in forking the blockchain.

Free software organisations are not democratic.  When someone doesn't agree with the majority, he doesn't have to "obey".  He can just fork the sotfware.  Democracy is not freedom, it's dictatorship of the majority towards minority.   Fortunately it doesn't prevail in FOSS.


The Democracy point you make is apropos, True Democracy is anarchy, in the process of forming groups before an inevitable separation.

Republics are a better system for unity. Democracy promotes individuals, which degrade into several groups, the group with the most power rules. It is in essence minority rule, until the ruling party pisses off a majority of the other groups.

Your point about forking the software is just the process of creating other groups within democracy. The rules for forking the software are still there, there is a process that must be followed. However, there is a feeling of freedom that has been lost IRL. And it does feel Good and Right.


Humans are a herd animal.  The concept of a true democracy is impossible, because even if everyone truly could have an equal vote, there is always a significant minority of the voting public that seeks an alpha male.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
grondilu
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March 27, 2011, 02:56:10 PM
 #50

Your point about forking the software is just the process of creating other groups within democracy. The rules for forking the software are still there, there is a process that must be followed.

There is no complicated process to follow, really.  In case of bitcoin, if someone wants to create a version of bitcoin with a constant reward for miners, all he has to do is to comment one line in the code:

In main.cpp, replace:

Code:
int64 GetBlockValue(int nHeight, int64 nFees)
{
    int64 nSubsidy = 50 * COIN;

    // Subsidy is cut in half every 4 years
    nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);

    return nSubsidy + nFees;
}

by:

Code:
int64 GetBlockValue(int nHeight, int64 nFees)
{
    int64 nSubsidy = 50 * COIN;

    // Subsidy is cut in half every 4 years
    //nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);

    return nSubsidy + nFees;
}


That's all.  Then all what one has to do is to run this and hope that other people will be interested in running the same thing.
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March 27, 2011, 03:04:30 PM
 #51

Your point about forking the software is just the process of creating other groups within democracy. The rules for forking the software are still there, there is a process that must be followed.

There is no complicated process to follow, really.  In case of bitcoin, if someone wants to create a version of bitcoin with a constant reward for miners, all he has to do is to comment one line in the code:


That's all.  Then all what one has to do is to run this and hope that other people will be interested in running the same thing.


If that is all that is done, the two sets of clients will each be trying to claim the current blockchain for their own after the reward drops to 25 BTC.  This will force an ongoing blockchain split, causing other network problems.  If anyone wants to do this, they need to build a separate network like 'testnet' is now.  Otherwise, I would be more than willing to participate in a direct attack of nodes that used the 'other' client.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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March 27, 2011, 03:45:04 PM
 #52

Your point about forking the software is just the process of creating other groups within democracy. The rules for forking the software are still there, there is a process that must be followed.

There is no complicated process to follow, really.  In case of bitcoin, if someone wants to create a version of bitcoin with a constant reward for miners, all he has to do is to comment one line in the code:

In main.cpp, replace:

Code:
int64 GetBlockValue(int nHeight, int64 nFees)
{
    int64 nSubsidy = 50 * COIN;

    // Subsidy is cut in half every 4 years
    nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);

    return nSubsidy + nFees;
}

by:

Code:
int64 GetBlockValue(int nHeight, int64 nFees)
{
    int64 nSubsidy = 50 * COIN;

    // Subsidy is cut in half every 4 years
    //nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);

    return nSubsidy + nFees;
}


That's all.  Then all what one has to do is to run this and hope that other people will be interested in running the same thing.



Maybe I am missing something but the code is exactly the same.

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grondilu
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March 27, 2011, 03:47:19 PM
 #53

Maybe I am missing something but the code is exactly the same.

You are indeed missing something.  One line is commented in the second version.
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March 27, 2011, 03:53:27 PM
 #54

Maybe I am missing something but the code is exactly the same.

You are indeed missing something.  One line is commented in the second version.


Ahh... OK.

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March 27, 2011, 06:57:49 PM
 #55

There exists no rational economic incentive to continue mining beyond the minting of new coins, because miners have no way to compel payers to pay a fee that makes mining worthwhile.  There is no way to achieve equilibrium.
I think that you are saying this only because you have certain interest in saying so.

Oh, right.  I'm the boogey man!

Maybe it is because I want the value of all my coins to go down?

Or maybe I am waiting in the bushes with a fist full of a zillion USD in wait to buy yours when I make yours go down?

Maybe I am really just the USA government, trying to infiltrate you "terrorists" who want nothing more than to "destroy freedom".  LOL

Let's stay realistic.  Jeez.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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March 27, 2011, 07:01:37 PM
 #56

If that is all that is done, the two sets of clients will each be trying to claim the current blockchain for their own after the reward drops to 25 BTC.  This will force an ongoing blockchain split, causing other network problems.  If anyone wants to do this, they need to build a separate network like 'testnet' is now.  Otherwise, I would be more than willing to participate in a direct attack of nodes that used the 'other' client.

Others have argued that this is a "good" thing, which will eventually work itself out and force a consensus.

(Not that I believe that however)

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
casascius
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March 27, 2011, 07:09:31 PM
 #57

Your point about forking the software is just the process of creating other groups within democracy. The rules for forking the software are still there, there is a process that must be followed.

There is no complicated process to follow, really.  In case of bitcoin, if someone wants to create a version of bitcoin with a constant reward for miners, all he has to do is to comment one line in the code:


For the crowd who's saying "fork the project or shut up", I can't imagine that that would be a good idea.  Given the poll, clearly I do not have the majority support and wouldn't get very far, and for the time being, I pretty much give up.

Those few of us who are tooting the "early adopter" horn aren't the majority.  We are just saying that the next million people who arrive here might conclude what we're saying, and then they will be the majority, and might ditch our block chain for us.

If anyone would like to guess where my interests lie, I have purchased and mined a good deal of BTC that I couldn't possibly spend at the moment (not enough goods and services for sale that would be useful to me, you can only do so many drugs, look at so much porn, wear so many alpaca socks and get online through so many VPN's)... I would not like to see them vanish in value if the public decides to overthrow the block chain because my BTC claims their goods and services in a vastly greater proportion than what I paid for them and diminishes the value of theirs as I cash them in.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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March 27, 2011, 07:24:24 PM
 #58

While what you say is correct, grondilu, it is also wrong. Since it still uses the same genesis block and the same network it will enter in conflict with everyone else.
I mean, sure if they mine a block they could say the block before them also got 50 BTC while the majority says he has 25. It would still need some tweaking in other parts.

As of FOSS goes, go ahead and create your own version that constantly inflates. No one is going to stop you, however that doesn't mean you will get support.

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March 27, 2011, 07:29:28 PM
 #59

For the crowd who's saying "fork the project or shut up", I can't imagine that that would be a good idea.  Given the poll, clearly I do not have the majority support and wouldn't get very far, and for the time being, I pretty much give up.

Those few of us who are tooting the "early adopter" horn aren't the majority.  We are just saying that the next million people who arrive here might conclude what we're saying, and then they will be the majority, and might ditch our block chain for us.

If anyone would like to guess where my interests lie, I have purchased and mined a good deal of BTC that I couldn't possibly spend at the moment (not enough goods and services for sale that would be useful to me, you can only do so many drugs, look at so much porn, wear so many alpaca socks and get online through so many VPN's)... I would not like to see them vanish in value if the public decides to overthrow the block chain because my BTC claims their goods and services in a vastly greater proportion than what I paid for them and diminishes the value of theirs as I cash them in.

You will always win when you save bitcoin. Any savers who comes later are just less fortunate.

Even if there is an inflationary cryptocurrency, they would just convert their inflatecoin into bitcoin for long term storage or just use bitcoin outright.

Inflatecoin supporter: I'll pay you in inflatecoin?

Merchant: Ok!

Merchant then turn inflatecoin into bitcoin.

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March 27, 2011, 11:34:54 PM
 #60

I'm not sure what to think about this early adopters guilt, remorse thing we got going on around here .... it truly stands in stark contrast to the antics of the banksters who have just bust existing fiat monetary systems and lined straight up at the tax-payer trough to draw bonuses from the dosh that was fire-hosed over them to prop up their failed enterprises. they were waving notes out the window to protesters in London, they have no shame, remorse, regret just entitlement.

Think of big money center banks as being the early adopters of fiat currency, they get access to cheaper money from e.g., the Fed. Res., than everybody else. It is why fiat/fractional reserve banking is such a racket, and a rigged game, that shovels wealth around in an unfair, undeserved, inefficient manner. They are a parasitical force that are a drag on society, causing progress and net wealth creation to be sub-optimal, call it sub-prime if you like. This is a broken, dysfunctional monetary system that the market is puking up.

Now contrast this with a group of basically technologists who have come up with a clearing system that performs this wealth-transfer, price-discovery payment-clearing, etc  function of money in a more efficient and we hope robust manner. Do you think the banksters would be trying to figure out a way of building into the system something that does them out of the benefit from being an early adopter?

You could just go and donate whole chunk of BTC to bitcoin faucet so that later adopters get a bigger slice to play with, or start up your own faucet that will dosh out even more in increasing amounts to later adopters ... I know how well that will go.

At present, the system is working and providing incentives in the right places for it to grow, quite rapidly in the bigger scheme. Supplementary businesses are springing up so that you can cash in and out of the bitcoin economy, if you cash out now to pay for something real, boat, car, land, shares that will put more into BTC circulation for the current adopters in the way of cheaper BTC. Money flows where it is needs to in an unfettered free market, amazingly efficiently as scholars have noted for centuries.

I say, be thankful that you are alive in such an "interesting time" where dangers and opportunities abound. Great fortunes are being made and lost, the wealth power is shifting ... and just don't forget that you can't take your BTC with you. They are just a nice token that are of this world but a great idea to leave behind for future generations who were staring down the bankster's barrel of indebted servitude for decades, imho.

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