Basics of the Lightning Network

[Lightblock]

@BitCryptex

Thanks for starting the thread! Could you please add https://lightblock.me to the list "8. Useful sources of information" ? It's a lightning network explorer for mainnet.

Regards.

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[Rath_]

You could mention that BIP157 & BIP 158 (implemented in Neutrino) will improve privacy for SPV based Lightning wallets.

~snip

And you could mention that Schnorr, MAST & Taproot will make the on-chain transactions opening/closing Lightning channels indistinguishable from regular 1 input/1ouput transactions (another privacy improvement, + extra fungibility)

Thanks for pointing out these things. I have just updated "Planned features" and "Security risks" sections. I would appreciate any further suggestions.

Thanks for starting the thread! Could you please add https://lightblock.me to the list "8. Useful sources of information" ?

Sure. I have added 1ML.com as well.

offline nodes are considered capable of routing which results in payments not going through in some cases,

This has been fixed in the v0.5 release of LND. When a channel is being closed or a peer node has gone offline, the rest of the network is informed that they are incapable of routing payments. It is also possible to create unadvertised channels which won't route payments.

[wwzsocki]

I have posted here about a video I have seen on YouTube about Lightning Network because I wanted to hear your opinions and this thread was a good choice, I assume.

This video shows how easy it is to send and receive transactions on LN and to be exactly author buys coffee and pays with LN transaction.

At the end of video, he has some doubts and I wanted to discuss them here but my post was deleted by a moderator and even a quote together with an answer to this post from a member @DooMAD was deleted too.

I don't think my post was spammy so I ask why it was deleted?

I have a copy of this post but don't want to post again until I don't know what is going on.

This is a forum and I thought that all of us here are supporters of freedom of speech and expression.

HERE is a link to this YouTube video, please watch and share your thoughts about the doubts in the end.

[Wind_FURY]

I have posted here about a video I have seen on YouTube about Lightning Network because I wanted to hear your opinions and this thread was a good choice, I assume.

This video shows how easy it is to send and receive transactions on LN and to be exactly author buys coffee and pays with LN transaction.

At the end of video, he has some doubts and I wanted to discuss them here but my post was deleted by a moderator and even a quote together with an answer to this post from a member @DooMAD was deleted too.

I don't think my post was spammy so I ask why it was deleted?

I have a copy of this post but don't want to post again until I don't know what is going on.

This is a forum and I thought that all of us here are supporters of freedom of speech and expression.

HERE is a link to this YouTube video, please watch and share your thoughts about the doubts in the end.

I like that debate. As much users must run full nodes as possible. But would he also agree that all users should stop using blockchain.info wallet, and other custodial wallets for on-chain transactions? Or was that video but a weak attempt to attack Lightning?

Ask him.

It was also disingenuous of him to make it look like Lightning is run only by trusted third parties.

[wwzsocki]

...users must run full nodes as possible...weak attempt to attack Lightning?...

I don't think this is possible in LN for users to run full nodes and that's one of the concerns he raises.

Do you think this is an attempt to attack LN? Maybe yes but a few of his concerns are valid and I thought about it too already.

Third party trust problem, centralization, no control, LN acting like a bank to name only a few first which cross my mind.

I am not a fan or against Lightning Network. We need a working solution which will make the BTC faster, cheaper, safer, better and additionally don't lose all the core values during the process. To be able to compete with this new GEN4 cryptocurrencies popping up every day with lightning speeds built into them, much safer, cheaper and way more scalable.

Has Lightning Network fulfilled this needs?

[Queenvio]

I just read on Reddit and also on there official website that
LNWallet.io is closing.
So if you still have any funds there withdraw it.

[Wind_FURY]

...users must run full nodes as possible...weak attempt to attack Lightning?...

I don't think this is possible in LN for users to run full nodes and that's one of the concerns he raises.

What? There are more nodes in the Lightning network than both Bitcoin Cash ABC and SV nodes combined. Haha.

Do you think this is an attempt to attack LN? Maybe yes but a few of his concerns are valid and I thought about it too already.

Third party trust problem, centralization, no control, LN acting like a bank to name only a few first which cross my mind.

He was being disingenuous in his debate. I would like to hear him say that users should stop using blockchain.info wallet, plus other custodial web wallets for on-chain transactions. To take it even further, stop using light clients like electrum, and use Bitcoin only through running full nodes.

I am not a fan or against Lightning Network. We need a working solution which will make the BTC faster, cheaper, safer, better and additionally don't lose all the core values during the process. To be able to compete with this new GEN4 cryptocurrencies popping up every day with lightning speeds built into them, much safer, cheaper and way more scalable.

GEN4 cryptocurrencies? What are they?

Has Lightning Network fulfilled this needs?

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But developers are free to experiment with anything on top of the network because it doesn't alter anything in the consensus layer.

[wwzsocki]

What? There are more nodes in the Lightning network than both Bitcoin Cash ABC and SV nodes combined. Haha.

Just checked and you are right:

Nodes runners are incentivized by the small fees that users pay to make transactions using one of their connections.

In order to run an LN node, you must run a full Bitcoin node. The former is dependent on the latter.

I thought that these nodes are LN nodes not connected to BTC but I was wrong. I took my time today and read a lot about LN and how exactly this all works.

GEN4 cryptocurrencies? What are they?

Like many others, I call them Gen4 but there is still debate if this is still 3rd blockchain generation or already fourth. Or even if there are generations of the blockchain at all? In the crypto world, everything is constantly evolving, sometimes so fast that we don't add up with how to call or name it. English is not my first language and when I translate crypto related text to Polish I have many times to figure out how to call things properly because such words even don't exist in our language and there are no professional translations available yet. Many times we have just to agree on something and I think this is the case with how or if to call different blockchains as different generations or something else. There are differences between blockchains for sure.

It’s not entirely clear what 4th generation blockchains are. Possibly, they are 3rd generation blockchains with lots of improvements through A.I. technology. Some of these are Matrix AI, Deep Brain Chain, SingularityNet, Multiversum, Insolar

You can read more about the 4th generation of blockchain and the best projects HERE

[DooMAD]

GEN4 cryptocurrencies? What are they?

Meaningless marketing buzzword bullshit.   

Every time someone talks about their coin somehow being "next generation", it's just a desperate plea for attention.  It's invariably a case of "Look at me, I have the shiniest baubles!" and generally not much else.  If it didn't shatter the illusion and they thought they could get away with it, they would probably try and call their coin Gen1000.   

[Carlton Banks]

GEN4 cryptocurrencies? What are they?

Like many others, I like to call them Gen4 but there is still debate if this is still 3rd blockchain generation or already fourth.

It’s not entirely clear what 4th generation blockchains are. Possibly, they are 3rd generation blockchains with lots of improvements through A.I. technology. Some of these are Matrix AI, Deep Brain Chain, SingularityNet, Multiversum, Insolar

You can read more about the 4th generation of blockchain and the best projects HERE

it's completely meaningless marketing rhetoric

if you believe it, you deserve to lose anything you invest

[wwzsocki]

it's completely meaningless marketing rhetoric

if you believe it, you deserve to lose anything you invest

Never said I believe in such marketing rhetoric.

I just answered your question about the 4th generation blockchain cryptocurrencies as best as I could.

[wwzsocki]

GEN4 cryptocurrencies? What are they?

Meaningless marketing buzzword bullshit.   ...

Like many others, I call them Gen4 but there is still debate if this is still 3rd blockchain generation or already fourth. Or even if there are generations of the blockchain at all?

In the crypto world, everything is constantly evolving, sometimes so fast that we don't add up with how to call or name it.

English is not my first language and when I translate crypto related text to Polish I have many times to figure out how to call things properly because such words even don't exist in our language and there are no professional translations available yet.

Many times we have just to agree on something and I think this is the case with how or if to call different blockchains as different generations or something else.

There are differences between blockchains for sure.

[Carlton Banks]

there is still debate if this is still 3rd blockchain generation or already fourth

there is no such (credible) debate

[ABCbits]

there is still debate if this is still 3rd blockchain generation or already fourth

there is no such (credible) debate

Additionally, there's no clear indicator/feature to classify blockchain generation which proves "blockchain generation" only a buzzword.

From what i've seen, most generation discussion only focus fancy features or output/throughput (such as high TX/s), not efficiency, decentralization, security or immutability.

[wwzsocki]

there is still debate if this is still 3rd blockchain generation or already fourth

there is no such (credible) debate

And what makes the debate especially about cryptocurrencies or blockchain credible?

[wwzsocki]

...there's no clear indicator/feature to classify blockchain generation which proves "blockchain generation" only a buzzword...

I agree with you that this is a buzz word but shall I don't use it because of that?

Like I said:

Like many others, I call them Gen4 but there is still debate if this is still 3rd blockchain generation or already fourth. Or even if there are generations of the blockchain at all?

[Rath_]

I made a few adjustments to this topic. I removed some information regarding wallets which need to be constantly updated. By the end of the month, I will publish a new thread about Lightning Network wallets.

Watchtowers – it is possible that the second party will attempt to cheat by broadcasting an old state of the payment channel. Normally, this would not be possible since the other node would broadcast a penalty transaction. To prevent frauds, the concept of watchtowers is being developed. Watchtowers will be able to broadcast a penalty transaction if necessary.

I have already explained in other threads that LND has introduced support for altruist watchtowers which don't take a cut if one party attempts to cheat. More features and varieties of watchtowers will be available in future updates.

there is no standard for safe backup

And it looks like there won't be anytime soon. Each implementation has its own backup solution. Eclair Mobile allows user to back up their channel state to Google Drive while LND and Eclair (desktop) support data loss protection and manual backups.

[nc50lc]

I would like to ask what is the cost of maintaining a Lightning Node? Or to be more specific, is it possible to calculate the potential cost? Like for Bitcoin Mining, the cost could be roughly estimated based on the kW/hr of electric bills.

Yes, like that.
But unlike Altcoin mining, your GPUs won't be running at full load, so just consider the regular power consumption of your rig.

BTW, next time, check the date of the topic that you're replying.
But this one IMO might be needing a bump.

[Carlton Banks]

unlike Altcoin mining, your GPUs won't be running at full load, so just consider the regular power consumption of your rig.

it may never submit your node hardware to the load that mining does, but for a node routing 100-10,000 payments per day, I dunno, maybe the w/h might start to become significant. Difficult to judge at this stage, as there clearly aren't enough payments over Lightning to expect that kind of load, but in time that kind of routing volume will be possible. We also don't know how efficient routing algorithms will become, or exactly how the network will stratify along the lines of routing v.s. non-routing nodes (the need for the "trampoline node" concept implies this will happen to some extent)

[Rath_]

I have reviewed and updated the first post. I got rid of outdated information and made the explanations easier to understand. Feel free to suggest what other information should be included in this thread. I think there might be too little information in the "Creating a payment channel" section, but I can't come up with any idea. The old version of this thread is available here.