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Hell-raiser
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August 24, 2018, 05:02:06 AM
Last edit: August 24, 2018, 08:12:38 AM by Hell-raiser
 #41

For now, I don't see why I would use BTC to do groceries when I have fiat. But when fiat blows up it would be good to have something ready by then if BTC wants to replace fiat too. The question is: Can BTC be both digital gold and digital day-to-day cash?

I don't think it can be. And we don't actually need to live up to that to find out. The very existence of altcoins reveals that we won't have to. I'm not going to say that altcoins were created specifically to be more like a regular currency unlike Bitcoin which came to be kind of digital gold, but this is how things turned out. So if fiat blows up one day, Bitcoin will most likely remain a store of value while some altcoin or a group of them will be used for regular transactions and payments like groceries.

In fact, the functions you mentioned (store of value and means of payment) are mutually exclusive to a great degree. That's why fiat is not good as a store of value since this function is sacrificed in favor of its currency aspect.
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August 24, 2018, 05:09:21 AM
 #42

That is a bad news ,hope Btc regain strength on its own.


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August 24, 2018, 05:26:45 AM
 #43

https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca/2018/34-83904.pdf

Who would have guessed it? (/sarcasm)

Of course, no one but deluded noobs think that the SEC is going to pass an ETF, if not ever, at least any time soon.

The reason they allowed Futures is because with Futures they can apply a strong bearish manipulation on the market. They will not allow an ETF until they have kicked out 100% of noobs out of the market, and once they have more BTC in their hands than the rest of the world, they will allow an ETF.

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

With or Without ETF the market could be manipulated and it was already manipulated many times since before this ETF events arrives. Even they rejected the ETF still they cannot stop the market manipulation and it will going happen as long as the big whales are existing therefore lets wait and see of what will happen in the coming days.

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August 24, 2018, 07:43:31 PM
 #44

For now, I don't see why I would use BTC to do groceries when I have fiat. But when fiat blows up it would be good to have something ready by then if BTC wants to replace fiat too. The question is: Can BTC be both digital gold and digital day-to-day cash?

I don't think it can be. And we don't actually need to live up to that to find out. The very existence of altcoins reveals that we won't have to. I'm not going to say that altcoins were created specifically to be more like a regular currency unlike Bitcoin which came to be kind of digital gold, but this is how things turned out. So if fiat blows up one day, Bitcoin will most likely remain a store of value while some altcoin or a group of them will be used for regular transactions and payments like groceries.

In fact, the functions you mentioned (store of value and means of payment) are mutually exclusive to a great degree. That's why fiat is not good as a store of value since this function is sacrificed in favor of its currency aspect.


The holy grail would be to be both a store of value and a viable currency, but so far it seems like it's impossible, I mean second layers are a decent effort but you are giving away too much decentralization as I understand it.

Gold can be bought and stored for the average individual, whereas if what some predict is true, it will be impossible for the average joe to do that with bitcoin. Of course big sized transactions will be cheaper in bitcoin compared to moving tons of gold, but for the average guy wanting to save his 50k savings, for less than 1.5 kg at current prices you can move it. So at some point getting 1.5 kg of gold delivered in your house will be cheaper than the transaction of 50k in BTC.

As far as alts as cash goes, im not really sure if they are any better than LN. If alts were to be used at scale, they would end up with massive problems which LN already are catering for.

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August 24, 2018, 08:26:19 PM
 #45

It seems that the SEC is one of the levers of manipulating the price of bitcoin. It seems to me that as soon as the right people will buy out the required amount of BTC at the desired price, then the SEC will accept the ETF and the price will begin to grow.

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August 24, 2018, 08:27:19 PM
 #46

https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca/2018/34-83904.pdf

Who would have guessed it? (/sarcasm)

Of course, no one but deluded noobs think that the SEC is going to pass an ETF, if not ever, at least any time soon.

The reason they allowed Futures is because with Futures they can apply a strong bearish manipulation on the market. They will not allow an ETF until they have kicked out 100% of noobs out of the market, and once they have more BTC in their hands than the rest of the world, they will allow an ETF.

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

Funny how others react. It is way far from this.

They think it is always the end once the bitcoin price is in bear market.
There will always be a chance. The problem is they dont see it for now. As for now it could go way back and forth but the real truth will be in the future.

Bitcoin will be used much and they still do not see it.

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August 24, 2018, 08:28:30 PM
 #47

That is a bad news ,hope Btc regain strength on its own.
Not that bad, the most important ETF is still being reviewed. The SEC is heavily influenced by bankers and I believe somebody is lobbying for them to take their time and delay as much as possible to prolong the bear market. This is a great moment for everyone with a lot of money to board the train and you won't even notice.
They know that ETFs and everything else will be approved sooner or later. It's as certain as the fact that we will have another rally. It may be in a year, it may be in 2 years, but it will happen.

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August 24, 2018, 08:29:21 PM
 #48

I told ya guys the SEC won't approve it, a lot of members were saying "this time is different" "for sure it will be approved", etc...
I hope to see them commenting on this topic to see what they have to say now Cheesy
They will say I knew it and I told you that boyz

Now I am interested to see how the market will react to this news in the next following days...
I don't see why the price should rise or drop especially for an expected event.

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August 24, 2018, 08:45:57 PM
 #49

If I get it correct, now we can anticipate even deeper sinking to the bottom of our dreams and plans, lol. But it gets me interested in the future!
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August 24, 2018, 08:56:23 PM
 #50

SEC staff have delegated authority to make a decision on such applications, meaning the commissioners and the SEC chairman have the power to review the decision if they desire.
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August 24, 2018, 09:00:24 PM
 #51

https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca/2018/34-83904.pdf

Who would have guessed it? (/sarcasm)

Of course, no one but deluded noobs think that the SEC is going to pass an ETF, if not ever, at least any time soon.

The reason they allowed Futures is because with Futures they can apply a strong bearish manipulation on the market. They will not allow an ETF until they have kicked out 100% of noobs out of the market, and once they have more BTC in their hands than the rest of the world, they will allow an ETF.

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

This is a stupid perspective and it's clear you didn't read the SEC's rationale. The SEC gives zero fucks about whether or not Bitcoin is an investment or how many noobs are invested in it. The SEC is tasked with enforcing the securities laws Congress enacts. Their rejection is predicated solely on fact that the requested rule change was inconsistent with current securities laws. The conspiracy theories about not approving an ETF until they get enough BTC for themselves is stupid and meritless. Further, the futures that have been approved don't have a direct impact on price because they're not settled in BTC, they're settled in cash. You can short the futures to zero and it won't impact the price of BTC, so the market manipulation claim is also garbage.

In short, you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about and you're an embarassment to people actually working in this space to make BTC viable.
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August 24, 2018, 10:03:33 PM
 #52

Some people were somehow aware from the start that the ETF was going to be rejected and as such were not surprised by the SEC's decision. Life goes on.

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August 24, 2018, 10:53:21 PM
 #53

It's really saddening tho.. We've  been waiting for this for long.
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August 25, 2018, 05:43:40 AM
 #54

For now, I don't see why I would use BTC to do groceries when I have fiat. But when fiat blows up it would be good to have something ready by then if BTC wants to replace fiat too. The question is: Can BTC be both digital gold and digital day-to-day cash?

I don't think it can be. And we don't actually need to live up to that to find out. The very existence of altcoins reveals that we won't have to. I'm not going to say that altcoins were created specifically to be more like a regular currency unlike Bitcoin which came to be kind of digital gold, but this is how things turned out. So if fiat blows up one day, Bitcoin will most likely remain a store of value while some altcoin or a group of them will be used for regular transactions and payments like groceries.

In fact, the functions you mentioned (store of value and means of payment) are mutually exclusive to a great degree. That's why fiat is not good as a store of value since this function is sacrificed in favor of its currency aspect.

The holy grail would be to be both a store of value and a viable currency, but so far it seems like it's impossible, I mean second layers are a decent effort but you are giving away too much decentralization as I understand it.

Yeah, it's impossible unless the whole paradigm shifts, and money then is very different from what it is now.

Gold can be bought and stored for the average individual, whereas if what some predict is true, it will be impossible for the average joe to do that with bitcoin. Of course big sized transactions will be cheaper in bitcoin compared to moving tons of gold, but for the average guy wanting to save his 50k savings, for less than 1.5 kg at current prices you can move it. So at some point getting 1.5 kg of gold delivered in your house will be cheaper than the transaction of 50k in BTC.

It is a whole lot easier to ban gold (and actually enforce this ban) than to ban crypto. See, it is not just about declaring Bitcoin illegal, it is real actions that could and should be taken to punish its possession. And that would be a big pain in the ass. On the other hand, possession of physical gold can be prohibited, and the ban can be enforced in real life. In fact, it has already been done in one big country once upon a time, so there's no reason to think that it can't be done again, this time globally.

As far as alts as cash goes, im not really sure if they are any better than LN. If alts were to be used at scale, they would end up with massive problems which LN already are catering for.

There are other similar technologies that many altcoins boast. And Litecoin has LN already activated (though not used).
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August 25, 2018, 06:54:28 AM
 #55

I would have loved the SEC to approve the ETF although I have the feelings that it is a distraction. I wanted it because it would have expanded the reach of cryptocurrency to more people. I saw it as a distraction because I know it is not compatible with the decentralized nature of blockchain.

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August 25, 2018, 09:08:02 AM
 #56

I would have loved the SEC to approve the ETF although I have the feelings that it is a distraction. I wanted it because it would have expanded the reach of cryptocurrency to more people. I saw it as a distraction because I know it is not compatible with the decentralized nature of blockchain.

True.
So why let it happen.
Actually I am kinda of happy with the decision.
Dont want it ending up into just another currency being eaten by sharks and whales. It is suppose to be a free currency. For usage of everyone and not just jn power.

With this ETF I dont see that happening anymore.
To reach other people? Or USA?

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August 25, 2018, 09:59:44 AM
 #57

https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca/2018/34-83904.pdf

Who would have guessed it? (/sarcasm)

Of course, no one but deluded noobs think that the SEC is going to pass an ETF, if not ever, at least any time soon.

The reason they allowed Futures is because with Futures they can apply a strong bearish manipulation on the market. They will not allow an ETF until they have kicked out 100% of noobs out of the market, and once they have more BTC in their hands than the rest of the world, they will allow an ETF.

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

I am believe bitcoin will survive and reach high price without ETF. I think ETF is not everything for bitcoin, because in 2017 without ETF, bitcoin can reach $19k and market cap increasing more than 1000% just one year.

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August 25, 2018, 10:41:19 AM
 #58

As ETF is rejected there are no more drivers which might boost market.  SEC has rejected ETF without any compromises it is a very negative signal for everybody and, of course it means that while fonds will not invest in bitcoit and altcoins. Unfortunately such SEC's decision has compromised not only bitcoin but the entire crypto market. This decesion allows SEC to keep in check the crypto market. So, lots investors are disappointed of such a decision and I am sure that the crypto market is not so attractive for investing so potential investors will hold their money elsewhere but not in bitcoins. Likewise many disappointed investors I also have suspended my investing in crypto assets because I am exhausted of the downtrend in ethereum and lack of potential in bitcoin. Unfortunately I am sure that this situation will not be boosted in this year substantially. I think right now  it is a good time to pay attention on other assets like gold because namely gold is quite attractive assets in the current moment.
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August 25, 2018, 02:26:23 PM
 #59

As ETF is rejected there are no more drivers which might boost market.  SEC has rejected ETF without any compromises it is a very negative signal for everybody and, of course it means that while fonds will not invest in bitcoit and altcoins. Unfortunately such SEC's decision has compromised not only bitcoin but the entire crypto market. This decesion allows SEC to keep in check the crypto market. So, lots investors are disappointed of such a decision and I am sure that the crypto market is not so attractive for investing so potential investors will hold their money elsewhere but not in bitcoins. Likewise many disappointed investors I also have suspended my investing in crypto assets because I am exhausted of the downtrend in ethereum and lack of potential in bitcoin. Unfortunately I am sure that this situation will not be boosted in this year substantially. I think right now  it is a good time to pay attention on other assets like gold because namely gold is quite attractive assets in the current moment.

Bitcoin is going up after the obligatory "ETF rejected" dip. Many noobs got owned thinking it was going to drop to 4000 overnight. Not a short squeeze typically but over the past few hours slowly many short positions got owned as we are going near $7000.

ETF being rejected was already priced in by anyone with a functional brain so this is not much of a surprise. It is true tho that many potential investors are waiting for the ETF but anyone that's realistic knows it's not coming this year, we'll see in 2019. But once again, ETF doesn't make or break Bitcoin, it just pumps the price.

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August 25, 2018, 04:20:43 PM
 #60

On 22 of August SEC completely rejected inquiries from three companies to approve Bitcoin-based ETFs. However after a while SEC stated that all the inquiries will be reviewed. The situation with ETFs is not over yet. Some sources claim that the ETF debate will be renewed in Feb 2019. I would wait a bit and follow the news to see if the ETFs status will be rediscussed.

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The Crypto Community Exchange
▐▐ █ █ █ █ ██ ██  Public Sale 1  Starts: Nov 1, 2018
A comprehensive “Cryptosystem”
Security & Insurance
A Community centric trading platform
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Whitepaper   .Telegram.   ANN Thread
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