BTCjam - Any Thoughts or Experiances

[Bourbon44]

Good work guys. A+ borrower here. I see that one of your puppet accounts has about 15+ BTC in this. Really trusted the guy, eh? I'm sure that the utmost diligence was done before approving these loans...

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[ranlo]

Good work guys. A+ borrower here. I see that one of your puppet accounts has about 15+ BTC in this. Really trusted the guy, eh? I'm sure that the utmost diligence was done before approving these loans...

As long as people keep blindly throwing their money at anyone and everyone, scams will persist. It's stupidity and greed, nothing more, nothing less.

[Bourbon44]

Good work guys. A+ borrower here. I see that one of your puppet accounts has about 15+ BTC in this. Really trusted the guy, eh? I'm sure that the utmost diligence was done before approving these loans...

As long as people keep blindly throwing their money at anyone and everyone, scams will persist. It's stupidity and greed, nothing more, nothing less.

No doubt that does play a role. And I'm not some disgruntled investor. I didn't invest in this loan although I have invested in that site and will walk away with a slight profit even if the .8 BTC I still have in receivables goes into default.

I'm not trying either to protect people from themselves. However, jam holds themselves out by applying these ratings to borrowers. They should be held accountable for the methodology that they use to apply such ratings. They also receive their fee once the loan is funded not when paid off. It's not hard to see that the incentive they have is to get the most loans funded, not necessarily to see the most loans to maturity.

Prospective investors should be aware of this before investing, because it is not readily apparent when initially visiting the site.

[ranlo]

Good work guys. A+ borrower here. I see that one of your puppet accounts has about 15+ BTC in this. Really trusted the guy, eh? I'm sure that the utmost diligence was done before approving these loans...

As long as people keep blindly throwing their money at anyone and everyone, scams will persist. It's stupidity and greed, nothing more, nothing less.

No doubt that does play a role. And I'm not some disgruntled investor. I didn't invest in this loan although I have invested in that site and will walk away with a slight profit even if the .8 BTC I still have in receivables goes into default.

I'm not trying either to protect people from themselves. However, jam holds themselves out by applying these ratings to borrowers. They should be held accountable for the methodology that they use to apply such ratings. They also receive their fee once the loan is funded not when paid off. It's not hard to see that the incentive they have is to get the most loans funded, not necessarily to see the most loans to maturity.

Prospective investors should be aware of this before investing, because it is not readily apparent when initially visiting the site.

I agree with the fee situation 100%. TBH, I'd never risk more than a very small amount of coin to loans regardless -- way too many scammers.

[Barnabe]

Good work guys. A+ borrower here. I see that one of your puppet accounts has about 15+ BTC in this. Really trusted the guy, eh? I'm sure that the utmost diligence was done before approving these loans...

As long as people keep blindly throwing their money at anyone and everyone, scams will persist. It's stupidity and greed, nothing more, nothing less.

No doubt that does play a role. And I'm not some disgruntled investor. I didn't invest in this loan although I have invested in that site and will walk away with a slight profit even if the .8 BTC I still have in receivables goes into default.

I'm not trying either to protect people from themselves. However, jam holds themselves out by applying these ratings to borrowers. They should be held accountable for the methodology that they use to apply such ratings. They also receive their fee once the loan is funded not when paid off. It's not hard to see that the incentive they have is to get the most loans funded, not necessarily to see the most loans to maturity.

Prospective investors should be aware of this before investing, because it is not readily apparent when initially visiting the site.

That's the big problem with these sites. The site should auto-invest in each loan from trusted members to show their commitment. This way they would have something to lose and would be more concerned about defaults.

[jayce]

That's the big problem with these sites. The site should auto-invest in each loan from trusted members to show their commitment. This way they would have something to lose and would be more concerned about defaults.

There is no way that they are going to put something like this in their system. They are business and they will do everything to make money for themselves not to lose money to any strangers in their site. They can pretend and lie that they increase their system to detect scammers but there will always be a scammer in their site

[adicted]

My experiences on BTCjam were very similar to what I have experience on certain ponzi websites back on my newbie days. I just lost my bitcoins with those scammers on BTCjam. From then on I avoided that site and actually all p2p lending websites. I would advise to lend on btcjam at your own risk

[sionsandman]

Good work guys. A+ borrower here. I see that one of your puppet accounts has about 15+ BTC in this. Really trusted the guy, eh? I'm sure that the utmost diligence was done before approving these loans...

They are buying debt on high profile loans through their account BTCjam Debt Collections and making the collections themselves.

Here are some recent examples:

https://btcjam.com/listings/46587-bitcoin-based-localbitcoins-com-trading

and

https://btcjam.com/listings/45490-stock-trading-capital?utm_medium=email&utm_source=transactional_email&utm_campaign=2015-10_new_comment&utm_content=buttonO

If it comes to that I'm quite sure they'll do the same for these 2 loans from Dwight Ringdahl.

And even if they don't there's this guy, Kevin Palley from Enforce my Arbitration Award that's very active recovering funds from US defaulters.

IMO is getting harder to scam in BTCjam but of course you can't throw your coins without thinking a little bit.

[Bourbon44]

Sigh...

See dude, that's the whole point. People fall all over themselves thanking BTCJam for their help, and now it somehow legitimizes their operation. Or that they're doing a better job. It is, certainly, better to get paid something for your investment in a loan. But its not just about protection from scammers, no one thinks about what kind of position Jam (or any other similar platform) is in when they provide these loans.

When a loan gets submitted BTCJam requests much more information from the borrower when they apply for the loan, than an investor, understandably. But then a loan becomes late, people start dumping notes a huge discount, then it becomes overdue, people start dumping notes at an even bigger discount. All the while, Jam, who has already collected their fee when the loan was funded, now has the ability to sift through the documentation provided by the borrower and determine with much more certainty than any investor ever could on that site ever could whether that borrower has the assets or the ability to pay off that loan regardless of whether a judgment was put against that borrower or not. Pursuing litigation is great, but if there are no assets, the lender will still be left with nothing. So now that investors are fucked, Jam can sit back in a position of leverage and cherry pick notes from defaults that they can scoop up at highly discounted values off investors who don't have the information to accurately assess the value of these notes.

Has BTCJam debt collections ever announced beforehand that they would be buying notes on a given loan? If your answer is no, have you ever wondered why? You bet your ass I would price a note much higher to an individual or entity who had a superior ability to assess the value of that note than myself.

So, the investor is left with the option to to pay a lawyer to find out the information that jam already SHOULD have. What was that fee for at Jam then?

BUT NOW THAT YOU KNOW THAT BTCJAM DEBT COLLECTIONS ARE BUYING NOTES FOR DEFAULTED BORROWERS HOW ABOUT YOU START PRICING NOTES AT VALUE MINUS 5% FEE THAT JAM ALREADY COLLECTED WHEN THE LOAN WAS FUNDED. That seems fair right? You are, after all, not selling to another investor, who if they wanted to collect would have to pay someone else to find out the same information that jam already has which is what you would theoretically be paying that fee for, to provide an accurate credit rating.

It really is a great business model that they have.

I can't completely blame Jam. If they did give out all of that info, borrowers would surely balk and there would be another site without such restrictions where they would go and investors chasing returns would then flock to that site.

Nothing will change until people demand better. I like the idea of crowdfunding loans, but this system is broken, severely. As others have said, posting collateral is an option, and it is certainly sound, but no provider of a platform will provide such an option if the competitors don't and the investors don't seem to mind.

[ranlo]

Sigh...

See dude, that's the whole point. People fall all over themselves thanking BTCJam for their help, and now it somehow legitimizes their operation. Or that they're doing a better job. It is, certainly, better to get paid something for your investment in a loan. But its not just about protection from scammers, no one thinks about what kind of position Jam (or any other similar platform) is in when they provide these loans.

When a loan gets submitted BTCJam requests much more information from the borrower when they apply for the loan, than an investor, understandably. But then a loan becomes late, people start dumping notes a huge discount, then it becomes overdue, people start dumping notes at an even bigger discount. All the while, Jam, who has already collected their fee when the loan was funded, now has the ability to sift through the documentation provided by the borrower and determine with much more certainty than any investor ever could on that site ever could whether that borrower has the assets or the ability to pay off that loan regardless of whether a judgment was put against that borrower or not. Pursuing litigation is great, but if there are no assets, the lender will still be left with nothing. So now that investors are fucked, Jam can sit back in a position of leverage and cherry pick notes from defaults that they can scoop up at highly discounted values off investors who don't have the information to accurately assess the value of these notes.

Has BTCJam debt collections ever announced beforehand that they would be buying notes on a given loan? If your answer is no, have you ever wondered why? You bet your ass I would price a note much higher to an individual or entity who had a superior ability to assess the value of that note than myself.

So, the investor is left with the option to to pay a lawyer to find out the information that jam already SHOULD have. What was that fee for at Jam then?

BUT NOW THAT YOU ALL KNOW THAT BTCJAM DEBT COLLECTIONS ARE BUYING NOTES FOR DEFAULTED BORROWERS HOW ABOUT YOU START PRICING NOTES AT VALUE MINUS 5% FEE THAT JAM ALREADY COLLECTED WHEN THE LOAN WAS FUNDED. That seems fair right? You are, after all, not selling to another investor, who if they wanted to collect would have to pay someone else to find out the same information that jam already has which is what you would theoretically be paying that fee for, to provide an accurate credit rating.

It really is a great business model that they have.

I can't completely blame Jam. If they did give out all of that info, borrowers would surely balk and there would be another site without such restrictions where they would go and investors chasing returns would then flock to that site.

Nothing will change until people demand better. I like the idea of crowdfunding loans, but this system is broken, severely. As others have said, posting collateral is an option, and it is certainly sound, but no provider of a platform will provide such an option if the competitors don't and the investors don't seem to mind.

I just want to say that this explanation is exactly how I view it. I haven't personally heard of anyone being tracked down/sued/etc. by BTCJam, despite the massive number of scams there. That in itself should speak wonders.

IF you invest there, you have to do it as just that -- an investment. Not a loan. Expect to have x% of them defaulted on. You just have to hope that the ones that don't default earn enough to compensate for those that do (it's akin to diversifying stocks -- you don't care if a couple tank, you care if the batch, as a whole, are positive).

[Bourbon44]

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Why does BTCJam Debt Collections have an A+ credit rating after verifying nothing but their identity? Why does the Phwner have an A- credit rating, lower than BTCJam Debt Collections, after verifying everything minus their credit card in addition to paying off their loans and establishing a credit history with no late payments, have a credit rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections? Why is this rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections?

Why does User #639815422 have a D+ rating after verifying 4 more items than BTCJam Debt Collections while having an equivalent credit history?

How are your ratings NOT arbitrary? What factors not listed on your website are you applying to your credit ratings?

[cazkooo]

Why does BTCJam Debt Collections have an A+ credit rating after verifying nothing but their identity? Why does the Phwner have an A- credit rating, lower than BTCJam Debt Collections, after verifying everything minus their credit card in addition to paying off their loans and establishing a credit history with no late payments, have a credit rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections? Why is this rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections?

Why does User #639815422 have a D+ rating after verifying 4 more items than BTCJam Debt Collections while having an equivalent credit history?

Based on my own experience, the credit rating goes higher to the person from a country like USA or some other country in the europe zone if they verify their bank account , especially credit card however if you are from other country the rating will always be lower. Apart from that, if you have an open loan, your rating will be lowered from your actual rating like what they did to phwner

[Barnabe]

Why does BTCJam Debt Collections have an A+ credit rating after verifying nothing but their identity? Why does the Phwner have an A- credit rating, lower than BTCJam Debt Collections, after verifying everything minus their credit card in addition to paying off their loans and establishing a credit history with no late payments, have a credit rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections? Why is this rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections?

Why does User #639815422 have a D+ rating after verifying 4 more items than BTCJam Debt Collections while having an equivalent credit history?

Based on my own experience, the credit rating goes higher to the person from a country like USA or some other country in the europe zone if they verify their bank account , especially credit card however if you are from other country the rating will always be lower. Apart from that, if you have an open loan, your rating will be lowered from your actual rating like what they did to phwner

Meh...
In case of default, you may be where you want they don't do anything for you. So I don't really see why bother...
I used to lend some monoey with this platform, but I only lent to identity confirmed people.
When they defaulted they didn't do shit, even if they knew exactly who they were... 

[Avirunes]

Why does BTCJam Debt Collections have an A+ credit rating after verifying nothing but their identity? Why does the Phwner have an A- credit rating, lower than BTCJam Debt Collections, after verifying everything minus their credit card in addition to paying off their loans and establishing a credit history with no late payments, have a credit rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections? Why is this rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections?

Why does User #639815422 have a D+ rating after verifying 4 more items than BTCJam Debt Collections while having an equivalent credit history?

Based on my own experience, the credit rating goes higher to the person from a country like USA or some other country in the europe zone if they verify their bank account , especially credit card however if you are from other country the rating will always be lower. Apart from that, if you have an open loan, your rating will be lowered from your actual rating like what they did to phwner

Meh...
In case of default, you may be where you want they don't do anything for you. So I don't really see why bother...
I used to lend some monoey with this platform, but I only lent to identity confirmed people.
When they defaulted they didn't do shit, even if they knew exactly who they were... 

Well its a nice move to only lend to fully verified people and keep up the risk minimum as possible.Talkimg about the unverified accounts there is still some rism but still guys favour to invest in their listing as they give up a high interest rate.Some comes out paying their lenders while some not.So the main game is setting up of an investment plan to reap up high profit at low risk by investing in multiple listings and making a smart investment move which is my way of investing.

[lumeire]

So the main game is setting up of an investment plan to reap up high profit at low risk by investing in multiple listings and making a smart investment move which is my way of investing.

Which would probably end up in a percentage of defaults > fully payed loans, and losses.

The idea is pretty simple but implementing it is a nightmare. Even those with A+ or B+ credit rating defaults in this environment where they've got nothing to lose except their identities, which I believe some are even fake.

[Barnabe]

Well its a nice move to only lend to fully verified people and keep up the risk minimum as possible.Talkimg about the unverified accounts there is still some rism but still guys favour to invest in their listing as they give up a high interest rate.Some comes out paying their lenders while some not.So the main game is setting up of an investment plan to reap up high profit at low risk by investing in multiple listings and making a smart investment move which is my way of investing.

Even if you diversify, a default would cost you the profits of 10 other investments so it's still very risky IMO. (And 10% default is probably very conservative)

[MadeinCoin]

Why does BTCJam Debt Collections have an A+ credit rating after verifying nothing but their identity? Why does the Phwner have an A- credit rating, lower than BTCJam Debt Collections, after verifying everything minus their credit card in addition to paying off their loans and establishing a credit history with no late payments, have a credit rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections? Why is this rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections?

Why does User #639815422 have a D+ rating after verifying 4 more items than BTCJam Debt Collections while having an equivalent credit history?

Based on my own experience, the credit rating goes higher to the person from a country like USA or some other country in the europe zone if they verify their bank account , especially credit card however if you are from other country the rating will always be lower. Apart from that, if you have an open loan, your rating will be lowered from your actual rating like what they did to phwner

It seems not a good idea to provide more value to one of the country if so it would be better to block the IP and only allow users from certain countries to join    . but I had to wonder if maybe one of the users / borrower of BTCjam ? I mean borrower are people who come from BTCjam may BTCjam owners or their employees using false ID and can not detect its existence so in case of failure of loan repayment investor could not do anything. What do you think ?

[ranlo]

Well its a nice move to only lend to fully verified people and keep up the risk minimum as possible.Talkimg about the unverified accounts there is still some rism but still guys favour to invest in their listing as they give up a high interest rate.Some comes out paying their lenders while some not.So the main game is setting up of an investment plan to reap up high profit at low risk by investing in multiple listings and making a smart investment move which is my way of investing.

Even if you diversify, a default would cost you the profits of 10 other investments so it's still very risky IMO. (And 10% default is probably very conservative)

If you only deal with the top-rated people, the risk should be lower. Still not nearly what you'd get elsewhere but still isn't as abysmal as you insinuate.

[cazkooo]

Why does BTCJam Debt Collections have an A+ credit rating after verifying nothing but their identity? Why does the Phwner have an A- credit rating, lower than BTCJam Debt Collections, after verifying everything minus their credit card in addition to paying off their loans and establishing a credit history with no late payments, have a credit rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections? Why is this rating lower than BTCJam Debt Collections?

Why does User #639815422 have a D+ rating after verifying 4 more items than BTCJam Debt Collections while having an equivalent credit history?

Based on my own experience, the credit rating goes higher to the person from a country like USA or some other country in the europe zone if they verify their bank account , especially credit card however if you are from other country the rating will always be lower. Apart from that, if you have an open loan, your rating will be lowered from your actual rating like what they did to phwner

It seems not a good idea to provide more value to one of the country if so it would be better to block the IP and only allow users from certain countries to join    . but I had to wonder if maybe one of the users / borrower of BTCjam ? I mean borrower are people who come from BTCjam may BTCjam owners or their employees using false ID and can not detect its existence so in case of failure of loan repayment investor could not do anything. What do you think ?

There is almost no way that you could trick them by faking your identity. You could fake your IP to make it looks like you are coming from the europe however you will need an ID , driving license and everything else that comes from europe as well and apart from that it is easy to diferentiate and detect a fake ID that was falsified by using photoshop and other tools

[Cyaren]

TBH, btcjam isn't the best way to invest your BTC at the moment. BTCJam accounts can and is being sold on open markets, which means a person's credit ratings might be false. I wouldn't recommend anyone use this site.