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Author Topic: are there speed-differences between Pools?  (Read 3046 times)
Jessi
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October 30, 2011, 09:02:40 PM
 #21

Ok. Therefore I guess I stay on Slushs...

Namecoin mining does not slow down anything?

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October 30, 2011, 09:05:35 PM
 #22

No.

Your miner has no idea it is even merge mining. It hashes block headers and returns shares and/or solutions.  The pool then checks those against both BTC and NMC.  As long as the pool has sufficiently powerful server there is no reason the pool can't deliver work fast enough.  If the pool was being slowed down by the load you would notice it in delays getting work.
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November 01, 2011, 01:10:23 AM
 #23

I believe joining a smaller pool would be a wiser choice.  Especially with the recent DDOS attacks.

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November 01, 2011, 10:43:46 AM
 #24

Larger pools almost guarantee income if you mine proportional. Smaller pools are a massive gamble, you may not even get paid at all
if the pool is at ~30-50ghash and fails to find a block for a month & everyone bails out of a sinking ship.

Point in case: btcpool24.com, completely died after encountering multiple 95+ percentile rounds at low speeds.
Over 5 million shares went to waste for nothing on the 'death round'. Miners bore the brunt of the losses, not the owner.

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November 01, 2011, 12:13:38 PM
 #25

Variance is probably the biggest factor, but there are some things to consider.

If your pool is being abused by poolhoppers than your income is probably taking a massive hit. Avoid this - don't give away your money to pool hoppers.

If your pool is slow in serving out new work through long poll when there is a block change, that's a small loss.

If your pool does merged mining and serves out new work through long poll any time there is a new block on either chain: block changes twice as often = small loss in BTC income. NMC production = sizable plus to your income.

If your pool does merged mining with long poll only on BTC chain: no loss in BTC production, but NMC takes a big hit with massive stales. As long as NMC stays above "worthless" value, this is probably not a good option.

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Jessi
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November 01, 2011, 02:26:07 PM
 #26

But why is the calculator on https://deepbit.net/help by 2100 Mhs telling me, that I´ll earn about PPS: 1.58 BTC/24h and the calculator http://bitcoinx.com/profit/index.php is telling me about Coins per 24h at these conditions: 1.7551 BTC?

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bitlane
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November 01, 2011, 02:29:40 PM
 #27

But why is the calculator on https://deepbit.net/help by 2100 Mhs telling me, that I´ll earn about PPS: 1.58 BTC/24h and the calculator http://bitcoinx.com/profit/index.php is telling me about Coins per 24h at these conditions: 1.7551 BTC?

Deepbit includes their 10% PPS fee into the calculation..... so, 1.58 * 1.10 = approx 1.738 (very close to the other number you listed....lol)

Also, here's a much easier calculator to use (just the basics): http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php

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Gerald Davis


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November 01, 2011, 02:52:00 PM
 #28

But why is the calculator on https://deepbit.net/help by 2100 Mhs telling me, that I´ll earn about PPS: 1.58 BTC/24h and the calculator http://bitcoinx.com/profit/index.php is telling me about Coins per 24h at these conditions: 1.7551 BTC?


Simple.  Don't use deepbit unless you like highest fees in the "industry".  Lots of other good low and no cost pools to choose from.
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November 01, 2011, 03:05:39 PM
 #29

Variance is probably the biggest factor, but there are some things to consider.

If your pool is being abused by poolhoppers than your income is probably taking a massive hit. Avoid this - don't give away your money to pool hoppers.

not true, see how itzod ran from hoppers, see bitp, I can add some shut down pools too

all miners are hoppers, they join lucky pools and quit unlucky, no matter proportional or some-twisted-shit method pool ops use.

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Gerald Davis


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November 01, 2011, 03:14:17 PM
 #30

all miners are hoppers, they join lucky pools and quit unlucky, no matter proportional or some-twisted-shit method pool ops use.

Pool hopping isn't the issue.  Inequitable share of the revenue is.  Some pools are far more equitable than others.  Some pools may it trivial to grab an inequitable share.

If someone can get an inequitable share then they will.  Given mining is a zero sum game if someone is getting more than "full PPS*" then someone else is getting less.


Full PPS = (block reward + fees)/(Difficulty)

The goal should be to select a pool which makes it as difficult as possible for someone else to gain more than "full PPS".  Proportional pools are the absolute worse on that metric.

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November 01, 2011, 03:27:18 PM
 #31

Larger pools almost guarantee income if you mine proportional. Smaller pools are a massive gamble, you may not even get paid at all
if the pool is at ~30-50ghash and fails to find a block for a month & everyone bails out of a sinking ship.

Point in case: btcpool24.com, completely died after encountering multiple 95+ percentile rounds at low speeds.
Over 5 million shares went to waste for nothing on the 'death round'. Miners bore the brunt of the losses, not the owner.

Yes, beware of this.  It seems many of the small pools have no plan of action for when their pool dies.  In many cases, submitting a share is gambling that the pool will last sufficiently long.  For bigger pools or PPS pools this is not an issue.
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November 01, 2011, 03:50:08 PM
 #32

Yes , you have been predicting Ars's demise for quite a while  but to those that are there for the last few  months its EXACTLY the same as PPS as far as amount of payout ( and 0% fee as well).  If a very long spell of bad luck comes  their way ( and you predict that eventually it will) and the buffer goes negative ,and a person has no patience- he can leave with maybe a small loss  ( much smaller than all the fees that would have been paid elsewhere)

If you can understand the problem with running a 0% fee PPS pool (assuming your costs are covered) then, with some thought, you will see the similar problem with SMPPS.  If you don't see a problem with this then look up "playing the Martingale" for a foolproof way of gambling and beating the casinos.

If you don't see the relationship then:
Would you mine at the SMPPS if the buffer was 500 BTC in the red?
What if it was 10`000 BTC in the red?

What would happen if people started leaving the pool en masse when the buffer is negative (thinking that if the pool recovers they'll get their due reward anyway)?  Would you continue to mine there yourself?

If SMPPS pools will always recover then how about starting a SMPPS pool with a negative buffer of 1000 BTC.  If you are right and SMPPS is sound then the buffer will eventually hit 0 and you will have made 1000 BTC out of nothing!  Go for it!

Just as with simple pyramid schemes, SMPPS might look good at first but, if it goes on long enough, a lot of miners will lose is a big way.
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Gerald Davis


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November 01, 2011, 04:10:57 PM
 #33

If you can understand the problem with running a 0% fee PPS pool (assuming your costs are covered) then, with some thought, you will see the similar problem with SMPPS.  If you don't see a problem with this then look up "playing the Martingale" for a foolproof way of gambling and beating the casinos.

There is no house advantage in Bitcoin mining (well unless you are a high fee pool operator). 

Quote
Would you mine at the SMPPS if the buffer was 500 BTC in the red?

Many people did.

Quote
What if it was 10`000 BTC in the red?
I likely wouldn't join but if I had a sufficient reserve it would be a calculated risk to keep mining.  Of course nominal terms are silly.  What matters is buffer relative to expected value over some time. 

So say 5 days negative buffer or a 30 days negative buffer.  If the buffer got sufficiently negative then the pool "could" collapse but as we see later this doesn't really matter.

Quote
If SMPPS pools will always recover then how about starting a SMPPS pool with a negative buffer of 1000 BTC.  If you are right and SMPPS is sound then the buffer will eventually hit 0 and you will have made 1000 BTC out of nothing!  Go for it!

No you won't.  The 1000 BTC would still be owed to the miners not the pool owner. You would make nothing out of nothing.

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Just as with simple pyramid schemes, SMPPS might look good at first but, if it goes on long enough, a lot of miners will lose is a big way.

No they won't.  It is highly improbable that any SMPPS failure would cost miners more than 10% of lifetime revenue which is what a 10% PPS pool does.

Simply put miners using a 10% PPS pool are GUARANTEED to lose 10% while miners of a SMPPS pool have a small chance of losing some % of their revenue but likely much less than 10% unless the have >10% of their LIFETIME shares in the buffer.  As time goes on the likelihood that a miner could lose >10% becomes more remote.

This isn't to say there is no risk simply that the risk isn't extreme and the amount of potential loss can be managed.

I mined on Ars for about ~9 months.  The most I ever had in buffer (thus my max loss) was 5 days worth of owed shares.  Even if the pool went bankrupt right then, then most I would at most have lost 2.2%.  Effectively my loss would be a 2.2% fee which is pretty damn good for no variance revenue. 
Jessi
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November 01, 2011, 04:12:47 PM
 #34

Simple.  Don't use deepbit unless you like highest fees in the "industry".  Lots of other good low and no cost pools to choose from.
So what are your suggestions where I can earn most stable and also lowest fees finally most BTC/Day? Maybe with merged mining?

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November 01, 2011, 05:43:03 PM
 #35

all miners are hoppers, they join lucky pools and quit unlucky, no matter proportional or some-twisted-shit method pool ops use.
The point is to use a hopping-proof method, where profits depends not on the pool's luck in the past, but in the future (which cannot be predicted without being a prophet).

Given mining is a zero sum game if someone is getting more than "full PPS*" then someone else is getting less.
Full PPS = (block reward + fees)/(Difficulty)
The goal should be to select a pool which makes it as difficult as possible for someone else to gain more than "full PPS".  Proportional pools are the absolute worse on that metric.
That's a very restricted definition of pool-hopping.

If you can understand the problem with running a 0% fee PPS pool (assuming your costs are covered) then, with some thought, you will see the similar problem with SMPPS.  If you don't see a problem with this then look up "playing the Martingale" for a foolproof way of gambling and beating the casinos.

There is no house advantage in Bitcoin mining (well unless you are a high fee pool operator).  
The point with gambler's ruin is that the gambler is eventually ruined even if there is no house advantage.


It looks like people are completely missing the point about what's wrong with SMPPS. To everyone who speaks about how profitable it was for them to mine in SMPPS when the buffer was positive / mildly negative - congratulations, you have successfully hopped the pool! Hopping is mining only when it is attractive. Of course mining in SMPPS when the buffer is positive is attractive. It's entirely possible that, after the successful start, you'll be able to keep mining well into a negative buffer before you hop away, and have an overall profitable period. You'd make even more profits if you optimized your hopping using proportional pools.

But the question isn't really what you will feel when the buffer reaches -10,000 BTC. It's about others who would consider joining the pool at that point. It would be silly of them to join this over other pools because the maturity time will be insanely high. And those who previously mined will also quit. And the pool will collapse. And that this is inevitable is built-into the design of the pool. I don't know when this will happen as this is random. It could be quickly and it could take decades.

Operators are dishonest if they offer a method which could collapse any minute. People who mine there now when everything's peachy with the intention to leave when things get rough, are plain hoppers which as I commented elsewhere I think is unethical. And those who keep mining even during a highly negative buffer are simply working against their own best interests.

And, as teukon implied - if SMPPS is safe it means that PPS can be offered with a low fee. And this is even more so if the operator makes a calculated risk assessment, raises the capital needed to have a sufficient buffer, and acts as a proxy to a larger pool such as p2pool.

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November 01, 2011, 05:44:20 PM
 #36

Simple.  Don't use deepbit unless you like highest fees in the "industry".  Lots of other good low and no cost pools to choose from.
So what are your suggestions where I can earn most stable and also lowest fees finally most BTC/Day? Maybe with merged mining?
Use a pool with a hopping-proof reward system and merged mining, such as eclipsemc.com and yourbtc.net .

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November 01, 2011, 05:58:27 PM
 #37

If you can understand the problem with running a 0% fee PPS pool (assuming your costs are covered) then, with some thought, you will see the similar problem with SMPPS.  If you don't see a problem with this then look up "playing the Martingale" for a foolproof way of gambling and beating the casinos.

There is no house advantage in Bitcoin mining (well unless you are a high fee pool operator).  
The point with gambler's ruin is that the gambler is eventually ruined even if there is no house advantage.

The gambler is only "ruined" because each loss builds upon the next and ultimately the gambler ends up with all his assets in a single bet.  Given enough bets he will eventually lose that final bet.

Nobody is saying that a SMPPS pool can't fail.  What matters is HOW MUCH WILL THE AVERAGE MINER LOSE WHEN THE POOL FINALLY DOES PAY.

Lets say I am only given two options for mining:
a) PPS w/ 10% fee (guaranteed never to fail as it is contractually bound to payout from a reserve and shutdown before defaulting on any shares)
b) SMPPS pool w/ 0% fee.

The SMPPS pool although having a risk of failure and the PPS have 0% risk of failure (in this highly unlikely comparison) the SMPPS pool is still better if the miner loses <10% of lifetime shares when the pool fails.

The argument that a SMPPS pool "can" fail is a strawman.  Any pool can fail even for reasons unrelated to payout system.  It can be hacked, attacked, robbed, victim of internal sabotage, or outright theft by owner.



Quote
Operators are dishonest if they offer a method which could collapse any minute. People who mine there now when everything's peachy with the intention to leave when things get rough, are plain hoppers which as I commented elsewhere I think is unethical. And those who keep mining even during a highly negative buffer are simply working against their own best interests.

Hardly.  I would say collecting a 10% fee which is significantly outsized compared to the risk is more "dishonest".  If an operator made a guarantee that SMPPS pool can't fail that is one thing but none have done that. 

There is risk in everything.  The question is the expected loss going to be higher than alternatives and if so does the reduced variance warrant that risk.  We don't need any "pool police".  Miners can decide for themselves what they want.

Assumming equally good server, bandwidth, and management there are essentially three variables to a pool
1) cost - pool fees plus witheld transaction fees
2) variability - how consistent are payouts
3) risk - how much and how likely could the miner lose earned but unpaid income

Nobody can say which method is best because individuals desires are different.  Obviously those paying 10% PPS put 2 & 3 very high and put #1 very low.  Personally I think that is insane.  There is no variability because you are getting the worst case scenario, a 10% loss on every single share over your lifetime.  However obviously for some miners in their "analysis" nothing else matter.
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November 01, 2011, 06:27:58 PM
 #38

Simple.  Don't use deepbit unless you like highest fees in the "industry".  Lots of other good low and no cost pools to choose from.
So what are your suggestions where I can earn most stable and also lowest fees finally most BTC/Day? Maybe with merged mining?
Use a pool with a hopping-proof reward system and merged mining, such as eclipsemc.com and yourbtc.net .

I didn't know eclipsemc.com was using merged mining already.  That's good to know!

Hardly.  I would say collecting a 10% fee which is significantly outsized compared to the risk is more "dishonest".  If an operator made a guarantee that SMPPS pool can't fail that is one thing but none have done that. 

There is risk in everything.  The question is the expected loss going to be higher than alternatives and if so does the reduced variance warrant that risk.  We don't need any "pool police".  Miners can decide for themselves what they want.

I fully agree that we don't want "pool police" and that pools should simply outline their reward system to attract miners.  However, SMPPS was originally pushed as a way of eliminating the essential problem with 0% PPS mining where, in fact, all that changed was that the risk was transferred from the pool operator onto the miners.

I have no problem with pool operators using the proportional reward system but do have a problem if they suggest that the system is, in any way, fair to 24/7 or random-intermittent miners.

What could be more honest than "10% PPS where each share is difficulty 1 and is worth x BTC".  It may not be very lucrative compared to other options but it's about as simple and clear as you can get when it comes to reward systems.
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December 18, 2011, 11:24:16 PM
 #39

All my mining rigs slows down if I connect to BTCGuild. I have no idea why that happens.

I'm mining at EclipseMC now. Best pool out there!  Wink

I'm using CGMiner 2.0.8, Ubuntu 11.04 64 bits, Catalyst 11.6 and SDK v2.4.

Cheers,
Thiago

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December 19, 2011, 12:48:07 AM
 #40

All my mining rigs slows down if I connect to BTCGuild. I have no idea why that happens.

I'm mining at EclipseMC now. Best pool out there!  Wink

I'm using CGMiner 2.0.8, Ubuntu 11.04 64 bits, Catalyst 11.6 and SDK v2.4.

Cheers,
Thiago

I had the same experience, stales on btcguild were extremely low though.
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