A simple proof that Bitcoin has zero value

[shield132]

You have to realize that in 21th century virtual things have value too, it's part of real world. Bitcoin is as usable as paper notes you have in pocket. You just transfer that notes into bitcoin and oppositely, transfer bitcoins into notes. Bitcoin isn't like an air, it has it's advantages to mine so it's not freely created, something was wasted for it and it's electricity + components of equipment.

[franky1]

guys no point replying to FXsurfer..
he is now trolling like a flat earther.
just let the topic die out

and i dont think he will see the big picture about cost, utility, function that creates value

maybe, just maybe
one day he will learn that the binary digits that make up the ledger has an actual function.
that creating the database has a cost.
and for people that want and need that function are happy to pay the cost of its creation.

but until then. no point going around in circles, unless he is ready to learn the big picture stuff

[fxsurfer]

You have to realize that in 21th century virtual things have value too, it's part of real world. Bitcoin is as usable as paper notes you have in pocket. You just transfer that notes into bitcoin and oppositely, transfer bitcoins into notes. Bitcoin isn't like an air, it has it's advantages to mine so it's not freely created, something was wasted for it and it's electricity + components of equipment.

I agree that digital things in 21th century have value, except if they are quantifiers in a database. Quantifiers have no value since they are only symbols that provide information about the quantity or other properties of digital or physical things. Things which are quantified are what have value.

Bitcoin is not usable as paper notes I have in pocket. Paper notes are usable because they are certificates of ownership of legally enforceable claims on land, cars, homes or incomes of borrowers. Numbers on paper notes are quantifiers of those claims. Hence, it is not numbers (symbols) on paper notes what have value, but claims. On the other hand, bitcoin is the name of the number in a database that quantifies nothing outside the database - no claims exist that are quantified with it. As such, it is completely unusable. The fact that number connected to your address has changed when you gave your iPhone for free to someone, is like changing A to B or changing the position of glass on a table. Simply put, changing the state of some digital or physical object doesn't make you the owner of something valuable. In other words, the fact that the state of a number is some database has changed has nothing to do with ownership, value or price.

[dohh]

You have to realize that in 21th century virtual things have value too, it's part of real world. Bitcoin is as usable as paper notes you have in pocket. You just transfer that notes into bitcoin and oppositely, transfer bitcoins into notes. Bitcoin isn't like an air, it has it's advantages to mine so it's not freely created, something was wasted for it and it's electricity + components of equipment.

I agree that digital things in 21th century have value, except if they are quantifiers in a database. Quantifiers have no value since they are only symbols that provide information about the quantity or other properties of digital or physical things. Things which are quantified are what have value.

Bitcoin is not usable as paper notes I have in pocket. Paper notes are usable because they are certificates of ownership of legally enforceable claims on land, cars, homes or incomes of borrowers. Numbers on paper notes are quantifiers of those claims. Hence, it is not numbers (symbols) on paper notes what have value, but claims. On the other hand, bitcoin is the name of the number in a database that quantifies nothing outside the database - no claims exist that are quantified with it. As such, it is completely unusable. The fact that number connected to your address has changed when you gave your iPhone for free to someone, is like changing A to B or changing the position of glass on a table. Simply put, changing the state of some digital or physical object doesn't make you the owner of something valuable. In other words, the fact that the state of a number is some database has changed has nothing to do with ownership, value or price.

It is possible to buy iPhone fro BTCs, although not from stores, but from other people. Therefore it has value at least in eyes of some people. Why You make fool out of Yourself and argue something, so obvious?

My collegues computer was infected with ransomware. Hackers asked to pay ONLY in bitcoins. So, it has value for hackers.

POINT IS: if something (may it be BTC or my saliva) is accepted by someone in return of trade, it has value for that person. If group of person grows big, then thing itself has value.

[Kakmakr]

guys no point replying to FXsurfer..
he is now trolling like a flat earther.
just let the topic die out

and i dont think he will see the big picture about cost, utility, function that creates value

maybe, just maybe
one day he will learn that the binary digits that make up the ledger has an actual function.
that creating the database has a cost.
and for people that want and need that function are happy to pay the cost of its creation.

but until then. no point going around in circles, unless he is ready to learn the big picture stuff

franky1 his goal was never to prove that Bitcoin has no value, it is just some click bait noise to confuse people. He is one of the well known shills on this forum and no matter what counter argument you bring here, he will have some crazy misdirected answer for that.

Just post your counter argument to clear up the possible FUD that are being spread by him and be on your way, because no debate will change his mind. <The goal is not to have a good debate about this, it is just to spread FUD>   

[Pursuer]

just because you don't understand what value means and how bitcoin has it, it doesn't mean bitcoin doesn't have value. if you start defending value the way you are doing here then about 80% of things that currently have value in the whole world become worthless.

[NeuroticFish]

In other words, column B and column C are basically the same thing - a number. It is just that column C uses alphabetic symbols, while column B uses numerical symbols.

If we go by your type of explanation, since your bank account contains some numbers and characters, it's actually worthless.
And then I have 2 questions:
1. Why do you pay for it (the bank is charging you for that account)?
2. Why don't you just donate to charity those worthless numbers from your account written under "balance"?

[fxsurfer]

You have to realize that in 21th century virtual things have value too, it's part of real world. Bitcoin is as usable as paper notes you have in pocket. You just transfer that notes into bitcoin and oppositely, transfer bitcoins into notes. Bitcoin isn't like an air, it has it's advantages to mine so it's not freely created, something was wasted for it and it's electricity + components of equipment.

I agree that digital things in 21th century have value, except if they are quantifiers in a database. Quantifiers have no value since they are only symbols that provide information about the quantity or other properties of digital or physical things. Things which are quantified are what have value.

Bitcoin is not usable as paper notes I have in pocket. Paper notes are usable because they are certificates of ownership of legally enforceable claims on land, cars, homes or incomes of borrowers. Numbers on paper notes are quantifiers of those claims. Hence, it is not numbers (symbols) on paper notes what have value, but claims. On the other hand, bitcoin is the name of the number in a database that quantifies nothing outside the database - no claims exist that are quantified with it. As such, it is completely unusable. The fact that number connected to your address has changed when you gave your iPhone for free to someone, is like changing A to B or changing the position of glass on a table. Simply put, changing the state of some digital or physical object doesn't make you the owner of something valuable. In other words, the fact that the state of a number is some database has changed has nothing to do with ownership, value or price.

It is possible to buy iPhone fro BTCs, although not from stores, but from other people. Therefore it has value at least in eyes of some people. Why You make fool out of Yourself and argue something, so obvious?

My collegues computer was infected with ransomware. Hackers asked to pay ONLY in bitcoins. So, it has value for hackers.

POINT IS: if something (may it be BTC or my saliva) is accepted by someone in return of trade, it has value for that person. If group of person grows big, then thing itself has value.

No, it is NOT possible to buy iPhone for BTCs. It is possible to give iPhone to someone for free and then to change numbers in a database. Changing numbers is not buying. Buying is acquiring the possession of something. Changed numbers are not possession. Of course, after the process of buying,  numbers in some database that represent information on the goods being stored in a warehouse can be changed. Numbers in a bank ledger (a running list of transactions to and from a bank account) can also be changed. But numbers themselves are valueless - they just express or measure the quantity of iPhones or digital money(digital certificate of ownership of legally enforceable claims on land, cars, homes or incomes of borrowers). So, you cannot buy iPhone for numbers (BTC), but someone can give you iPhone for free, and then change numbers in some database.

[fxsurfer]

In other words, column B and column C are basically the same thing - a number. It is just that column C uses alphabetic symbols, while column B uses numerical symbols.

If we go by your type of explanation, since your bank account contains some numbers and characters, it's actually worthless.
And then I have 2 questions:
1. Why do you pay for it (the bank is charging you for that account)?
2. Why don't you just donate to charity those worthless numbers from your account written under "balance"?

You are correct. Numbers in the bank accounts are worthless since the banks created them out of thin air. These numbers are just quantifiers of the obligations of the borrowers to repay their loans. Now, if borrowers have obligations, then it means that someone else has a claim. So, who has a claim? Well, both the banks, and owners of money that is created via loans. The banks because they formally issued the loans to the borrowers, and the owners of money because they literally credited borrowers with land, cars, houses and other valuable things when they traded them for the loan-created money. These two facts are formally recorded in the balance sheets of the banks. Specifically, when a bank grants a loan, the loan contract is shown both, as an increase in bank’s assets because the bank now has an additional claim on borrowers, and as a positive entry on the liability side of the bank’s balance sheet, because money owners now have an additional claim on the bank. And a claim is property in the fullest sense of that term, that it has its own value, and it may be sold, transferred, mortgaged, and inherited. Numbers in the bank accounts are worthless symbols whose only purpose is to express or measure the size of the claims in a banking system.

[NeuroticFish]

You are correct. Numbers in the bank accounts are worthless since the banks created them out of thin air. These numbers are just quantifiers of the obligations of the borrowers to repay their loans.

So you explained what a ledger is. Your logic is "interesting", the ledger applies to banks, but not to Bitcoin.
Also you didn't answer my questions.

[fxsurfer]

You are correct. Numbers in the bank accounts are worthless since the banks created them out of thin air. These numbers are just quantifiers of the obligations of the borrowers to repay their loans.

So you explained what a ledger is. Your logic is "interesting", the ledger applies to banks, but not to Bitcoin.
Also you didn't answer my questions.

A bank is a financial institution while bitcoin is a number in the ledger. So what do you mean by: "applies to" ?

Regarding your questions, I answered them indirectly, but ok, here is the direct answer.

1) Banks are business that have to cover costs associated with maintaining accounts and protecting legal claims stored in these accounts, so I have no problem to pay them for that job.  

2) Numbers cannot be donated to charity because they are just abstract mathematical objects. Only possessions (in our case certificates of ownership of claims on land, cars, homes or incomes of borrowers) can be donated. But people don't just donate their possessions to unknown persons.

[NeuroticFish]

A bank is a financial institution while bitcoin is a number in the ledger. So what do you mean by: "applies to" ?

So the banks are the only entities entitled to have ledgers we can trust? You have missed a great part of the real world.

Regarding your questions, I answered the indirectly, but ok, here is the direct answer.

1) Banks are a business that have to cover costs associated with maintaining accounts and protecting legal claims stored in these accounts, so I have no problem to pay them for that job.  

And then why are you so reluctant in using (and paying to use) a ledger maintained by the community, in a way nobody can cheat it?

2) Numbers cannot be donated to charity because they are just abstract mathematical objects. Only possessions (in our case certificates of ownership of claims on land, cars, homes or incomes of borrowers) can be donated. But people don't just donate their possessions to unknown persons.

So the amount in bank is abstract mathematical object, however you trust you will get goods in exchange for that (eg. via debit cards), while you claim that the abstract mathematical objects from Bitcoin ledger are worthless.
See the/your double standards here? Imho you just contradicted your own logic, meaning that the initial "logic" is faulty.

PS. People do donate now and then. And even gold, or paper money, or even a sandwich are things you can posses and can donate; however, it's not important in the main discussion.

[larrylegend33]

If the Bitcoin dies i would say all of us the millions of people in here bitcointalk would die too..   We can say this easly if the Bitcoin dies every altcoins and all the cryptocurrency market dies. So it would be end of everthing.. Our investments, our home made work life.. Anything.. So please nothing happens to BTC..

[funchiestz]

its actually deeper than supply and demand.
when you take in the cost of acquiring bitcoin. and then thats the underlying value no one would be willing to sell below because they wouldnt ever dream of selling for less then they acquird if for.

its then where people speculate a profitable PRICE above bottomline costs which they would sell for. and thats the speculative PRICE above value.
read my post above to explain that part known as 'value' (bottomline acquisition cost)

I think anyone who needs money can sell Bitcoin from cheap. Just like with other products. Another element of cost, another element of cash, but I still respect your opinion.

But when we talk about the demand and supply of iPhones, Dollars, and IBM shares, we are talking about things of value which exist outside the place(database) where the information about these things exists. There is no demand for number 5 in a database, where this database represents the number of iPhones in a warehouse for e.g. The demand is for things(iPhones) which are actual devices, and which exist outside the database. So, the demand is for an actual thing, while number in a database is just a symbol that quantifies that thing. The same is true for Dollars or IBM shares.

Bitcoin on the other hand, is not an actual thing outside the database. It is just an entry in a database that points to another entry in the same database. One entry is a number written in numerical symbols — 2 for e.g., and another entry is the same number written in alphabetical symbols — bitcoin or BTC. And of course, there is no such thing as a demand for symbols in a database. What you have in the world of Bitcoin is not demand and supply, but the modification of an entry in the database when someone gives things (iPhones or Dollars) for free. On the other hand, when supply and demand meet in case of iPhones and Dollars, the modifications in store's or bank's databases are just numerical evidences that people exchanged actual things (iPhones for dollars and vice versa). And of course, these things exist outside the databases. So, there is no such thing as demand and supply in the world of bitcoin, but instead, all there is is giving your stuff for free and recording that fact into a database/public ledger/blockchain in the numerical form.

I don't agree with what you say. As you say, Bitcoin is out of the system like other examples, the comparison is not correct. So we shouldn't compare these other examples with Bitcoin. But there is, IBM share whatever Bitcoin it is! You need to think of Bitcoin as a currency like USD. If you don't have enough demand behind the USD, it will be as valuable as a piece of paper. Bitcoin doesn't have the same demand, it's just a coding in the virtual world.

[fxsurfer]

So the banks are the only entities entitled to have ledgers we can trust? You have missed a great part of the real world.

So instead of answering my question you just made a generic statement that has nothing to do with the things I am saying. Ok your choice.

And then why are you so reluctant in using (and paying to use) a ledger maintained by the community, in a way nobody can cheat it?

Because it is a fake ledger whose data points to nothing. It is just empty numbers connected to the addresses. Legitimate ledgers contain data about the quantities or other properties of digital or physical things that are owned and have value. Hence data is simply an emergent property, a symbolic representation of the actual thing, and without the thing itself data is useless. Bitcoin is just symbols/digital bits in memory that are not an emergent property of the actual thing that is owned and have value, and its only purpose is alteration once someone gave their possessions for free. If nobody can cheat in data alteration that doesn't mean data has value. Data is just a sequence of one or more symbols and it cannot have value in principle.  

So the amount in bank is abstract mathematical object, however you trust you will get goods in exchange for that (eg. via debit cards), while you claim that the abstract mathematical objects from Bitcoin ledger are worthless.

See the/your double standards here? Imho you just contradicted your own logic, meaning that the initial "logic" is faulty.

PS. People do donate now and then. And even gold, or paper money, or even a sandwich are things you can posses and can donate; however, it's not important in the main discussion.

The amount in bank is mathematical object that measures the share in the total claims that originated from the total borrowers liabilities. And claims are not based on trust but on legal enforceability. What that means in practice is that borrowers have two options: either they will sell their services and valuable things to owners of loan created money directly on the marketplace to get funds for their loan payments, or the bank will take possession of their land, cars, homes and will sell their valuable things to these owners indirectly, via foreclosure. So one way or another, legal enforceability of money, i.e. its claim status, ensures that its owners will come back into the possession of valuable things similar to those they handed out to borrowers or other people in the money circulation chain. And that’s the beauty of loan created money. Since loan is legally enforceable liability that must be settled, the demand for money stored on bank accounts or banknotes will exist as long as this type of money does. In other words, even if people completely abandon loan created money as means of exchange, the borrowers are still forced to use it until all their debt is paid off, since non-acceptance of this money won’t make borrowers’ liabilities go away. That means that ultimately, the amount in my bank account will provide me with actual things in the form of goods, services or property of borrowers, just like the gold certificates provided their owners with actual gold. To put it another way, in the past, money was backed by gold, today, it is backed by the assets of the banks and by land, cars, homes and other property of the borrowers.

So, the amount in bank is indeed abstract mathematical object, but thing represented and quantified with it is not. Bitcoin on the other hand, is abstract mathematical object that represent and quantify nothing. Hence, there is no contradiction in my logic.

[NeuroticFish]

Writing long economic sentences doesn't make your logic better. You miss a great lot of the truth and I think that you do it on purpose.
I tried to give you a chance, but I see that Franky was right. My bad for feeding the troll.

[r32godzilla]

Bitcoin is not created out of thin air.There is mining cost for bitcoins to be mined.If you had added another column for US dollar,then it would best suit for what you have mentioned.

[fxsurfer]

Bitcoin is not created out of thin air.There is mining cost for bitcoins to be mined.If you had added another column for US dollar,then it would best suit for what you have mentioned.

Yes it is, bitcoin is created out of thin air. First there was nothing in the ledger, and then there was number(bitcoin) in the ledger. Hence, out of thin air. All numbers in databases are created out of thin air. They are not "build" by adding parts gradually, step by step, like houses, cars or mobile phones are. And of course, the amount of energy spent or force applied in the process of creation does not change the fact that they are created out of thin air.

[Kprawn]

Bitcoin is not created out of thin air.There is mining cost for bitcoins to be mined.If you had added another column for US dollar,then it would best suit for what you have mentioned.

Yes it is, bitcoin is created out of thin air. First there was nothing in the ledger, and then there was number(bitcoin) in the ledger. Hence, out of thin air. All numbers in databases are created out of thin air. They are not "build" by adding parts gradually, step by step, like houses, cars or mobile phones are. And of course, the amount of energy spent or force applied in the process of creation does not change the fact that they are created out of thin air.

Ok, explain to us how a credit card gets credited by money and how fiat currencies are being duplicated out of thin air when

you deposit your physical cash into Banks and how they "duplicate" that money, when they loan it to someone else. Also

called, Fractional reserve banking , it is a banking system in which only a fraction of bank deposits are backed by actual

cash on hand and are available for withdrawal. A digital entry out of thin air... Magic Money with ZERO value.    They only

had to push a few buttons on a computer, nearly no electricity was spend to create that money. 

[BitcoinPanther]

And it is also an oxymoron to state that a bitcoin worth US $6K has a zero value, don't you think otherwise?

What happened here is that you talked about physicality. An iphone is a cellphone, a US Dollar is a paper bill and IBM Shares are bond or equity that is with proofing of a certificate or something to that effect.

It is for this mere reason that you based your assumption that bitcoin has zero value. And truly, bitcoin has no physical form simply because it was designed electronically (or digitally, whichever you prefer to call it). Just like an email, an email remains to be digital in nature with no physical form until you had that email printed. But until the printing, does it mean that the email holds no value at all? Of course not, right?

Thus, i do believe that bitcoin is more than what you think of it. It is not zero value. It has its own purchasing power.