A simple proof that Bitcoin has zero value

[squatter]

No, the only way BTC will get less volatile is if it actually starts having a real economy develop using it. Right now, only a few get paid in BTC for their work and can purchase all of their wants and needs with BTC. Even many people who manage to cover most of their expenses with BTC alone, actually rely on some method which converts the BTC to fiat.

I'm not actually sure that will dampen volatility. It would remove selling pressure from the market since people would no longer need to convert BTC to fiat. But removing that liquidity from the market could actually make the market more volatile, since it will take less capital to push the price up.

I am not convinced that BTC can really sustain an actual economy. Since it is limited in supply, this encourages hoarding. If too many people HODL, that is not much money flowing and makes for a poor economy. BCH and Lightning network claim to solves this by making the scaling better. However, if you just build bigger pipes, but you only have a trickle worth of water; you are still going to get only a trickle.

I think you might be right. It boils down to Gresham's law. As long as bad money is still in circulation, people will have incentive to hoard BTC rather than spend it.

[cxmyifan16]

I think that btc is the best coin ever and it is necessary to invest in it now when the price is lower than it is going to be in the nearest future. To my mind, it is better to use crypto now while the market is unstable

[halfmil]

This is true, and I think BTC probably can only achieve a high dollar value if everyone starts using it. The more people that find use for it the higher the dollar value will be.

I think some things might change moving forward in the future for this to happen. If people realize that they do not have to pay income taxes if they get paid in BTC this might be a strong incentive for more people to want to get paid in BTC. The easier it becomes to pay for things with BTC the more people might use it. The most convent way I have seen people actually use BTC to pay for things is by loading BTC onto a prepaid credit card and use it just like any other card to fill their gas tanks or buy groceries ect.. but I think online shopping is where it will really thrive in the future. I think this will be a gradual change in the future as more people use it the volatility will gradually change also.

I live in the US and you are expected to pay taxes on your Bitcoin earnings. True, you may fly under the radar for your whole life. Much like people who work by getting paid under the table get away with it. However, if you get caught, prepare to have the government extract their pound of flesh from you. You can increase your chances by using an anonymous coin like XMR or ZEC. However, if you are buying goods and services or exchanging them for fiat, there is a good chance there will be a record of the transaction that isn't anonymous. I suppose you can uproot yourself and find a jurisdiction that won't tax you. However, how many people are really interested in moving to these jurisdictions? There is also going and living on a seastead.  

If you buy or earn BTC and sell it for fiat you are suppose to pay tax on the profit even though the majority of people do not. If you earn BTC and pay for stuff in BTC how can this ever be taxed when it is not converted to fiat? BTC is only taxable when turned back into fiat. On top of that if you use a privacy coin like xmr, dash, ect. like you mentioned these are completely invisible on both ends of the transaction and there is almost nothing that can be done. Even if people used a non privacy based coin and everyone did it there is really nothing anyone can do to stop it. The manpower simply does not exist to handle a situation like this. It is like trying to stop the internet itself. A police officer can not stand on every corner in the world.

From any country in the world you can open a bitcoin wallet located on a computer in any other country in the world using a tor browser and send that bitcoin to a wallet on a computer in any other country in the world. It can not be stopped or regulated. It is the people that have the power not the governments. This is also exactly why bitcoin was created in the first place, to be an alternative way of doing things and give the financial power back to the people not banks, big business and governments.

[bones261]

If you buy or earn BTC and sell it for fiat you are suppose to pay tax on the profit even though the majority of people do not. If you earn BTC and pay for stuff in BTC how can this ever be taxed when it is not converted to fiat? BTC is only taxable when turned back into fiat. On top of that if you use a privacy coin like xmr, dash, ect. like you mentioned these are completely invisible on both ends of the transaction and there is almost nothing that can be done. Even if people used a non privacy based coin and everyone did it there is really nothing anyone can do to stop it. The manpower simply does not exist to handle a situation like this. It is like trying to stop the internet itself. A police officer can not stand on every corner in the world.

From any country in the world you can open a bitcoin wallet located on a computer in any other country in the world using a tor browser and send that bitcoin to a wallet on a computer in any other country in the world. It can not be stopped or regulated. It is the people that have the power not the governments. This is also exactly why bitcoin was created in the first place, to be an alternative way of doing things and give the financial power back to the people not banks, big business and governments.

Actually, if someone earns BTC and are a US citizen, that person is supposed to pay income tax on it. Also, if someone purchases goods or services with a cryptocurrency, that person is responsible for any capital gains tax that may be due. Depending on what the BTC was worth when someone acquired it, that person could also claim a capital loss as well. Also, it is true that privacy coins are rather obfuscated when checking the blockchain. However, if someone is purchasing goods over the internet, the records on where they will be shipping the goods will not be anonymous.
The chances are pretty good that a person can get away without paying taxes. Also, the guidance is scant and the recording requirements are ridiculous. Chances are pretty good that if a person at least made the effort to pay their taxes on their cyrptocurrency transactions, the government will probably be forgiving if it wasn't perfect. However, if someone makes no effort at all to pay the taxes, they stand the risk of being one of the unlucky few that the government will make an example out of. If someone wants to take the small chance of living in back taxes hell, that is up to them. The government could literally take the shirt off someone's back if they wanted. Furthermore, they could take it a step further and take away that person's freedom after convicting them of tax evasion.

[cahbagus555]

Bitcoin have a value on the security. We put value because we trust on anything including bitcoin. Bitcoin have secure network and the data transaction can not duplicated. It must be a value of bitcoin and thats why many big investor come to market and investing their funds

[harry_crypto]

Seems interesting! But blockchain technolgologies have many uses especially when pegged to things with value like you can do with EVT!

[halfmil]

If you buy or earn BTC and sell it for fiat you are suppose to pay tax on the profit even though the majority of people do not. If you earn BTC and pay for stuff in BTC how can this ever be taxed when it is not converted to fiat? BTC is only taxable when turned back into fiat. On top of that if you use a privacy coin like xmr, dash, ect. like you mentioned these are completely invisible on both ends of the transaction and there is almost nothing that can be done. Even if people used a non privacy based coin and everyone did it there is really nothing anyone can do to stop it. The manpower simply does not exist to handle a situation like this. It is like trying to stop the internet itself. A police officer can not stand on every corner in the world.

From any country in the world you can open a bitcoin wallet located on a computer in any other country in the world using a tor browser and send that bitcoin to a wallet on a computer in any other country in the world. It can not be stopped or regulated. It is the people that have the power not the governments. This is also exactly why bitcoin was created in the first place, to be an alternative way of doing things and give the financial power back to the people not banks, big business and governments.

Actually, if someone earns BTC and are a US citizen, that person is supposed to pay income tax on it. Also, if someone purchases goods or services with a cryptocurrency, that person is responsible for any capital gains tax that may be due. Depending on what the BTC was worth when someone acquired it, that person could also claim a capital loss as well. Also, it is true that privacy coins are rather obfuscated when checking the blockchain. However, if someone is purchasing goods over the internet, the records on where they will be shipping the goods will not be anonymous.
The chances are pretty good that a person can get away without paying taxes. Also, the guidance is scant and the recording requirements are ridiculous. Chances are pretty good that if a person at least made the effort to pay their taxes on their cyrptocurrency transactions, the government will probably be forgiving if it wasn't perfect. However, if someone makes no effort at all to pay the taxes, they stand the risk of being one of the unlucky few that the government will make an example out of. If someone wants to take the small chance of living in back taxes hell, that is up to them. The government could literally take the shirt off someone's back if they wanted. Furthermore, they could take it a step further and take away that person's freedom after convicting them of tax evasion.

This is a little off topic and maybe I am wrong about that fact but I think if two people use xmr as a payment in a private party sale it’s going to be hard to get taxes from that. I also find it ironic that the government would throw someone in jail for not paying taxes on something another person says is just an arbitrary number and has zero value.

[fxsurfer]

Bitcoin is not just an abstract number it means something. The same way a math problem is not just an abstract number. It has information attached to it. In this since it can be a utility also.

In the bitcoin world, when you transfer your dollars, goods or services to someone all that has happened is numerical marking of the transfer. That is all. After the transfer you didn't become the owner of some right, claim, good, service, etc., but a visible trace is created in the database that you gave something for nothing. In the real world, when you transfer your dollars, goods or services to someone, this can also be marked numerically, for accounting/bookkeeping purposes for e.g., but you will also receive something of the same kind in return - euros, rights, claims, goods, services, etc.

So the only information attached to bitcoin is mark of the fact that you gave something of value and received nothing in return.

[gunungkembar]

maybe your explanation is difficult to understand by ordinary people like me, but I will only mention a bit of the problem of bitcoin has zero value, how can it happen if it is not worth the bitcoin price will not be as expensive as this.

[halfmil]

Bitcoin is not just an abstract number it means something. The same way a math problem is not just an abstract number. It has information attached to it. In this since it can be a utility also.

In the bitcoin world, when you transfer your dollars, goods or services to someone all that has happened is numerical marking of the transfer. That is all. After the transfer you didn't become the owner of some right, claim, good, service, etc., but a visible trace is created in the database that you gave something for nothing. In the real world, when you transfer your dollars, goods or services to someone, this can also be marked numerically, for accounting/bookkeeping purposes for e.g., but you will also receive something of the same kind in return - euros, rights, claims, goods, services, etc.

So the only information attached to bitcoin is mark of the fact that you gave something of value and received nothing in return.

The transaction contains information. When you transfer bitcoin you are the owner of that information. Information itself can be valuable and also a utility.

[eaLiTy]

I give you a different lookout. Whatsapp doesn't produce anything and when you look at it, there's nothing material about it. But they are making huge profit year by year. After Facebook purchased, their profit getting smaller but there are so many example like Whatsapp.

This is not a great example as the things you use for free will make sure they will have other ways to make money by collecting your personal data's and contact details and after the purchase by Facebook they are still collecting personal data's and will use it for advertising .
When it comes to the valuation of bitcoin , the chart OP prepared would have being a good read back in 2010 for compelling reasons and not anymore as it has grown to a stage that it will never end up having zero valuation unless there is some technical glitch.

[Jokerrrrrr]

what you dont understand is this

1. if the database was secured using a signature, (PoS) then the costs to secure it is zero. but bitcoin actually has a real hard cost to secure the database (PoW) which is commonly called mining.
in 2009. mining could be done by one persons PC and he would broadcast the database out to other and the costs were negligable.

2. over time the security increased, it became difficult to secure it with single machines. people started to calculate that the electric required to secure it was as such
if electric was 5cents an hour. and 6 blocks were created in that hour. and a block contained 50coins in 2009
then a cost per coin was $0.000016666666666667
then it started requiring more power. and thus when 10 people were using their electric only one got to secure it meaning for every 10th block a person got rewarded. thus the cost rose 0.00016666666666667
then it started requiring more power. and thus when 100 people were using their electric only one got to secure it meaning for every 100th block a person got rewarded. thus the cost rose 0.0016666666666667
then people started using GPU's and the costs rose. they started pooling their workload together and sharing the reward and the costs increased.

by 2011 the amount of electric and time put into securing bitcoin got to $1.
by 2012 the amount of electric and time and equipment needed made it cost $6

the the reward halved so that doubled the costs because there was then half the reward. so 2012 had a $12 cost
more people started to join pools and the security difficulty increased. so costs to secure it went up

by 2013 ASICS became a thing and vastly increased the security and difficulty. to a tune of $100
by 2016 the cost went up to $300
by 2017 the costs went upto $900
by 2018 costs went up above $5000

yea the costs dont match the price.. but thats speculation. thats random drama above the underlying value.
it like housing.
it cost $80k to build a house but the builders sell it for a bit more to profit so houses price in at over $100k. and then speculators add on more.

housing has real costs and so housing is not free. and yes when the PRICE hyper inflates above VALUE/COST
that excess is a bubble because the price is "inflated" like a bubble inflates.
the housing market had a 'housing bubble' not because housing is fake but the price was inflated way above value

so yes with bitcoin although we did see a $1200btc in 2013 although the value was ~$100. did not mean btc was worth zero.. its VALUE was $100 and its PRICE was an inflated bubble of $1200

so yes although we did see a $20k btc PRICE in 2017 although the value was ~$2k. did not mean btc was worth zero.. its value was $2k and its price was an inflated bubble of $20k

and now in 2018. by looking at the cost of mining. there is not much of a inflated layer(speculative layer) above value. bitcoins VALUE is actually around the $6k costs and so compared to the very thin % of speculation. is deemed good value as the price and value are close to each other.

bitcoins have a cost
housing has a cost
tulips has a cost
but the price fluctuates above cost.
you can still buy tulips even now.. astonishing right? you would think tulips are fake or not worth anything. but they are worth something.
you can still buy houses even now.. astonishing right? would think houses are not worth anything. but they are.
you can still buy bitcoins even now.. astonishing right? you would think bitcoins are fake/worthless but they they are worth something.

I think you missed the point of my opening post, which is this: bitcoin has neither price nor value. Furthermore, terms 'the price of bitcoin' and 'the value of bitcoin' are oxymorons. Let's go back to our database to see why.

_____A______     ____B____    ______C______
____Alice____      ____2____    ____iPhones___
____ Bob ____     ___20____    ____US Dollars_
___ Steve____     ___15____    ___IBM Shares_


Now, can you say that entries in column B have prices? Of course not, this would be nonsensical, since they are quantities not prices. Things outside this database (named in column C) are what have prices. But, in the case of bitcoin, there are no things outside this database that are named in column C, and this column simply contains the name of the entry in column B - number 2 is bitcoin.

____Peter____     ____2____    ____Bitcoins___

So, when you say that bitcoin has price, what you are actually saying is that quantities (numbers) have prices, which is, as we just saw, nonsensical.

I can understand you but Bitcoin is a code like a software has
And a code has both value and price like software

[Wall_Streeet]

Yes, this is true, but keep in mind that any thing is worth nothing if it is not used

[T o x i c a l]

Perhaps you are right in your reasoning. Bitcoin is just numbers on the screen. Behind them is not worth anything! It turns out that those who promote the idea of bitcoin want the digital emptiness to control our world.

[libert19]

Everything that has value, it's because we give it to him. Gold, diamond, etc have value because we are enticed by its beauty and buy them.

[bitfocus]

yes, the same rule will define your life is an oxymoron, too. Please try to use your brain when you think or write, thanks.

[kucritt]

i believe that bitcoin have zero value, but i still use bitcoin until right now, why? because i know that all stuff in this world is have zero value, the cause that makes the there are have value is because demand, demand in bitcoin is high so it makes the price and the value is increasing and high

[tarable]

I think that btc is the best coin ever and it is necessary to invest in it now when the price is lower than it is going to be in the nearest future. To my mind, it is better to use crypto now while the market is unstable

all know that BTC is the first coin that appears and has a high value but at the moment I think all types of coins are experiencing a problem that is not the stability of the current price. therefore a good change is now desired by many people.

[carlisle1]

So if bitcoin has zero value,then what are you doing here?why staying in crypto community if this is your stand stupid?This only mean one thing that you are still here to gain because of this fud and bringing misleading issues to make bitcoin price more lower so you can purchase as many as you can,please stop this dude,people now here are mature to know whats right and wrong

[franky1]

160+ posts and many still squabbling

the value is the underlying cost.
the utility (which some call 'values' note the s at the end which means its a different word& definition) is better to be called desire to separate desire/utility 'values' from financial value.

yes if bitcoin had no utility, there would be no desire and no one would want to pay a certain price for it.
so this is why bitcoin cant be a store of value(fiscal) without also having desire values(utility)

however the desire/utility is decided above the cost. which in different people view is a different level of desire dependant on how much they want/need(demand). vs how much is available to meet that demand(supply).
this desire(values) in short is the speculative layer ontop of the acquisition cost layer(value)

there is a symbiosis. that plays out. if something has utility it has desire to use/want it. it then has a cost to acquire it. and then the price is the temporary drama layer above the cost layer that people fight over depending on demand/supply

bitcoin cant be just a store of value simply because of store of value. it needs utility.

bitcoin has a underlying value layer below the price. which is the support layer

people will always try finding the cheapest way to get something they desire. so when its too costly to mine it, they buy it. when its too costly to buy it, they mine it.
there is a market/mining dynamic that builds up a underlying value

unlike PoS crap coins that have no cost to mine it... crapcoins like PoS have no underlying true cost thus they rely purely on speculation. which is why their PRICE is always so much lower than PoW coins