"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs..."

[I.Goldstein]

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to it being done at all." – Judge Napolitano via F. Bastiat

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[Jalum]

Oh man...Atlas is quoting something...I wonder if it agrees with his worldview and seems to answer a question no one asked?!

[Red]

It agrees with my world view.
Andrew Napolitano himself... Meh.

[cruikshank]

Damn Socialism being another idea that some people like, though not everyone, and existing. Damn it, why can't the world only have the one ideology that exists in my head? Why can't everyone just think like I do and like the same things I do? Why can't we banish Socialism to the Singularity of the super massive black hole in the center of the galaxy, where it can no longer steal our sweat, brows and bootstraps?

I mean I have never lived in a Socialist state, but I read on the internet someone some where didn't like it. I do the same when it comes to movies. One bad movie review, said movie couldn't possibly be good at all. The time I save from not seeing the movie opens up extra time when I post about how the sales tax on the ticket was too high, the director made me a slave, and the plot had too much red tape in it.

[P4man]

I mean I have never lived in a Socialist state,

No one has, socialism in the original sense of the word has never been really tried (aside perhaps for some very short lived experiment in Spain in the 30s). Oh, sure lots of countries have called themselves socialist and still do, and we have (deliberately) called lots of countries socialist that were anything but; they were the exact opposite of what I call socialist (and what would now arguably be called libertarian socialism); they were and are oppressive dictactorships with government owned production rather than stateless direct democracies with worker owned production The word socialism has pretty much lost its meaning now.

[FredericBastiat]

I mean I have never lived in a Socialist state, but I read on the internet someone some where didn't like it. I do the same when it comes to movies. One bad movie review, said movie couldn't possibly be good at all. The time I save from not seeing the movie opens up extra time when I post about how the sales tax on the ticket was too high, the director made me a slave, and the plot had too much red tape in it.

Really? Where do you live? Out in the middle in the ocean on your own island? You apparently don't know the definition of socialism. And the fact you use state, implies you believe someone has greater authority than you to tell you what to do. Ever paid taxes? I could go on and on, but I'm sure you're just being sarcastic so I'll avoid wasting your time and mine.

Enjoy your "slavery" while you can, it will get worse if you let if fester.

[rainingbitcoins]

Really? Where do you live? Out in the middle in the ocean on your own island? You apparently don't know the definition of socialism.

Holy shit! You mean to tell me this whole time American workers have owned the means of production and we didn't even know it? I'm going to have to look into this.

[SgtSpike]

That's actually a really good quote.

[rainingbitcoins]

It really isn't because it purposefully ignores the fact that the whole reason socialism exists in the first place is that society clearly wasn't doing the things people needed. And still is not.

[SgtSpike]

It really isn't because it purposefully ignores the fact that the whole reason socialism exists in the first place is that society clearly wasn't doing the things people needed. And still is not.

Unless you believe that society is doing exactly the things people needed.  And still is.

[FredericBastiat]

Holy shit! You mean to tell me this whole time American workers have owned the means of production and we didn't even know it? I'm going to have to look into this.

The "American worker" owns most of his production. He pays a portion of that product in taxes and concedes to the state certain specific regulations, which by defintion, no longer makes them the sole owners of their own property. If someone can take from you a portion of your property or dictates to you the means of production, or manipulates and guides you into specific uses thereof, your property becomes part-owned by the state (or third party).

That sort of dicta is socialist by it's very nature. Every government has varying degrees of socialism implemented if volunteerism is diminshed in any way. The US is no different in that respect. It just may be more "free" and less "socialist" than other states in other countries.

[rainingbitcoins]

Your definition of socialism is so diluted as to be meaningless. Adam Smith qualifies as a socialist under that convoluted meaning.

Unless you believe that society is doing exactly the things people needed.  And still is.

Yes, but you'd have to willfully ignore all objective reality to believe that.

[Red]

Somebody explain to me exactly which "ism" that Greece is.

Beyond balking about *not* paying back 50% of their loans. They are balking about austerity measures whereby the government can only spend 120% of GDP each year. I mean WTF!

Socialism wants safety nets to protect some from others.
Communism wants to redistribute only the actual GDP among the workers.
What crazy ass "ism" demands to redistribute wealth that absolutely nobody has created?

Isn't this like saying Andrea Rossi might turn out to be right. So we should all get free electricity now to make up for the obvious unfairness of riches given to future generations?

[P4man]

The greek population has every right to balk. I would balk too if I lived under a corrupt government that was ran by foreign banks and got me and my compatriots in to debt for generations to come. those "austerity" measures are even more idiotic. The only way for greece to ever get back on its feet is by having a growing economy. Killing what little you have as economy does no one any good, particularly if you can not devaluate your currency as greece should.

Here is whats really happening: banks made a fat profits by endebting the greek by corrupting and taking over their government.  Yes, they are spending 120% or whatever of their GDP, but most of that goes to paying back the banks, not the greece population. Now that greece is no longer able to service its debts, those very banks are forcing the hand of the EU to lend money to greece. Not money to spend on reviving its economy, but to pay back the banks. All the while "austerity" measures force greece to do a firesale of what little assets it still has left, like utility companies, heck even islands (!) so the foreign bankers can buy those for pennies on the dollar. If they need any more money for that, they will demand it from the EU as compensation for the losses they made on greek sovereign debt.

BTW, those loans foreign banks are forfeiting; google on odious debt. I would be surprised if only 50% of greek debt was odious and greek people should be under no obligation to pay that back. Of course german and other EU governments have made sure in their agreements to lend greek more money, that those debts will not seriously be investigated. After all, they were hugely profitable for our companies and banks even if they were corrupt and illegal. Its better for us to have future generations of greeks pay for that!

[Red]

The greek population has every right to balk...

So let's say the default and don't pay a penny back to those greedy bankers. Let's also say the kill or deport all those corrupt government officials. Let's also say they drop out of the Euro currency so they can do what they want with their Drachmas.

A 50% reduction in debt plus austerity measures took them from spending 150% of GDP down to 120% of GDP. Let's say they give up the austerity measures you don't like, but dump the other 50% of debt too. Are you claiming they have a hope in hell of getting by without German/European charity?

Should "the Greek people" choose to go it alone, against the advice of every European neighbor, at what point do you think they become *my* problem? I say never. I'm sure you will differ.

[MoonShadow]

Your definition of socialism is so diluted as to be meaningless. Adam Smith qualifies as a socialist under that convoluted meaning.

He might at that, but the word has differnet meanings to different people.  There can never be any agreement about what 'socialism' does or should mean because there can never be much more agreement about what Karl Marx intended in his magnum opus 'das kapital'.  It can be interpreted in many different ways, but he was most likely responding to the obvious poverty in the wealthiest city on Earth at that time, London, England.  He never lived long enough to see the fruits of the industrial revolution come to pass, and thus that same abject poverty alieviated by capitalists' own self-serving greed.  Who knows how he would have been changed by that.  As for myself, any society that actively aggresses against a citizen for the simple act of opting out isn't a free society, even if the vast majority of the middle class can reasonablely be considered the privilaged class.

http://www.panarchy.org/spencer/ignore.state.1851.html

If you don't have the right to ignore the state without that same state grabbing you and throwing you into a cage, then you are not really free no matter how much liberty the state permits.

[P4man]

Im not sure what your point is. Should I hate the greek for not repaying illegal and corrupt debts that banks and other companies from my country benefited from ? Not gonna happen. I have no reason to hate greeks, and I will not fall for the caricatures of them being lazy or whatever. The greek people arent responsible for this debacle.

The truth of the matter is Germany, US and other rich western countries and multinationals with the help of institutions like the IMF deliberately ran greece (and so many other countries) in to debts by corrupting their governments, making them dependent on cheap loans they knew they could never be able to pay back, loans that didnt benefit greeks, but for building infrastructure benefiting our oil companies, our rail road manufacturers, our banks, and other companies.  In return for those cheap loans we forced them to implement neoliberalism which really meant allowing our companies to buy greek assets, ports, utilities etc on the cheap. We pretty much took over their government, even helped them to hide the corruption.

Then, once the music stopped, goldman and the like, who fully knew what was happening since they essentially orchestrated it, quickly dumped the toxic assets on greek banks, and rather than lending started shorting greek bonds, thereby ensuring interest rates on those bonds would skyrocket and make the debt unservicable. Clever scheme, they made a fortune on the way up and on the collapse which they timed themselves.

Mind you , its not like greece is unique in this prospect, we do it everywhere. The Balkan, the Mediterranean, Latin America, Africa,.. thats how we try to control those countries.

As for what the greek should do; several Latin American countries where in a position similar to greece. until they elected courageous leadership that didnt surrender to demands of IMF and the big banks for "austerity", commit economical suicide, dismantle and sell off their country; instead they pursued policies that benefited their people and their economy, refused to pay back illegal debts and kicked out the IMF. They seem to be doing relatively fine by themselves now.  I hope the greek find the courage to do the same. Im not demanding they pay for the corruption of our banks and corporations.

[Red]

As for what the greek should do; several Latin American countries where in a position similar to greece. until they elected courageous leadership that didnt surrender to demands of IMF and the big banks for "austerity", commit economical suicide, dismantle and sell off their country; instead they pursued policies that benefited their people and their economy, refused to pay back illegal debts and kicked out the IMF. They seem to be doing relatively fine by themselves now.  I hope the greek find the courage to do the same. Im not demanding they pay for the corruption of our banks and corporations.

Which ones? It doesn't make a good example, unless you give an actual example.

But as long as you are saying, it's not my fault, nor is it my responsibility, then we're good.

[P4man]

Which ones? It doesn't make a good example, unless you give an actual example.

Pretty much all of them. Argentina, Brazil, most recently Equador.

But as long as you are saying, it's not my fault, nor is it my responsibility, then we're good.

No idea what you are saying. Who is "me" in the above quote? If you mean the greek, maybe this will help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJCHHiQ22GM

[Red]

No idea what you are saying. Who is "me" in the above quote? If you mean the greek, maybe this will help:

No I actually mean *me* "Red", a random American. I've never worked in banking, or taking over foreign governments. Nor do I want to.