Flaws In The Merit System.

[stingers]

I have come across many merit spamming due to the new ranking update. Still, it was also taking place before this update happened but it has increased much these days as everyone has noticed.

I personally think at one point that this system is working in some parts of the forum but some people are just misguided about what posts should be merited as there is no single definition of what a merit deserving post is. Still, I read a statement from thyemos explaining what type of posts deserves merits.

I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

But I think many people are using merits to merit the posts that they agree with and not meriting the posts which are of high quality. ( I think this is also done by some merit sources )
And This is the reason why many of the quality posts are ignored.

This is a very big Flaw I think which should get some solution instead the main purpose of merits will just be lost and only the merited posts will be related to views and not for the quality an of the content.

I want some views about:

1. What flaws do you think this merit system has?

2. How do you think merit system is abused? ( I don't want buy/sell as an answer )

EDIT:

You can also find much such posts where you think the merits are wasted for supporting the view.

I would like to add some of the example about how merits are used not for the quality but for just supporting views.

[1715274358]

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[atrocityx]

I think the biggest flaws in the merit system has is ways that it's obvious to game the system... there are several things you can do imo that will lead to more merit opportunities that have very little to do with good posts, its just a way of manipulating attention in a certain light where it favors you.  Here are some examples, whether these are disingenuous or not I guess is up for debate:

1) Only posting in sections with high merit handouts.
2) Posting only on threads that are on page 1 (lol who doesn't do this besides signature spammers)
3) Berating others complaining about rules in order to appeal to more merit sources.
4) Posting threads as merit giveaways as a way of gathering merits for the topic creator.
5) Posts about merit achievements to farm merit.  (To be fair this one is less acceptable lately but in the beginning, some heavily abused this, and its just skanky.)

It creates an environment where there is less discussion and more just "talking at" the topic creator and trying to have the most clever response. It's less shitposting and spammy I guess but it's been replaced with 70 people in certain sections trying to rewrite the same answer to a question over and over in a way that's more clever than anyone else's which becomes just boring as hell to read as well.

To your point though, I'm not really sure that there is a big difference between high quality and something you agree with.. because high quality is subjective.. like what defines a quality post?  Something in English that answers the question first?  How about more elaborate?  What if its 10 paragraphs long?  I just don't see how you can unlink subjectivity from what is considered high quality, which is why my list above I feel exists.

[stingers]

-snip

Yes, I too think this are some of the flaws merit system has and many people are trying to limit themself in specific areas to award merits and this is making people just concentrate on making a good post at that section and just ignore others.

I also like to add that most of the quality content posts are made in economics and bitcoin discussion sections but its weird to see more merit exchange in the meta section where most of the people just post there views.

[1993jochico]

1. What flaws do you think this merit system has?

Can easily abuse by those old users who has plenty of high rank accounts.

-This can be solve if all the reported merit abusers gets banned permanently, but obviously not.

2. How do you think merit system is abused? ( I don't want buy/sell as an answer )

I think this will explain it and most of the merits given is to obviously alt accounts.

[Direwolve735]

I think that the main flaw of the merit-system is that it lured all the attention of bitcointalk participants, leaving in the shadow the main topics devoted to the most important and initial issues of the forum. This system was intended as a motivation for improving the quality of posts, whereas in fact it resulted just in an increase in the number of comments. All conversations revolve around merits. Part of the participants are in pursuit of merits, and the other part writes about what exactly the first ones do wrong and why they don`t receive merits.

Instead of encouraging forum members to write more vivid, constructive and interesting posts about crypto-currencies, economy or trade, the merit-system drove the participants into a vicious circle. After all, in general, people receive merits for posts, one way or another devoted to merits. The merit-system features were misunderstood by the majority of bitcointalk members, and that`s how I see the main flaw.

[atrocityx]

I think that the main flaw of the merit-system is that it lured all the attention of bitcointalk participants, leaving in the shadow the main topics devoted to the most important and initial issues of the forum. This system was intended as a motivation for improving the quality of posts, whereas in fact it resulted just in an increase in the number of comments. All conversations revolve around merits. Part of the participants are in pursuit of merits, and the other part writes about what exactly the first ones do wrong and why they don`t receive merits.

Instead of encouraging forum members to write more vivid, constructive and interesting posts about crypto-currencies, economy or trade, the merit-system drove the participants into a vicious circle. After all, in general, people receive merits for posts, one way or another devoted to merits. The merit-system features were misunderstood by the majority of bitcointalk members, and that`s how I see the main flaw.

I agree, but how do you really stop the circle?   I'm willing to just post on things I know more about like the cryptocurrency trading section, but at some point I would like to rank up too and it not take me 5-10x longer than someone doing this circle grind in a more clever way.

"Everyone must be a part of the sickness, because everyone seems to need the cure."

[Shef198911]

To be honest, I have no idea how to earn this merit...to write some meaningful post ? Also not so easy, on the forum and so already a lot of all the information that helps and informs... To there was a good man and gave her just for the answer, which fully agree or like, too, I think a miracle, now more power has passed to people who have multi accounts on which there are already merits, and distribute to their other accounts... I myself am one of those people who seriously create some abstruse posts, write articles, but for all its presence tried to give some useful advice on how to support a person or to motivate, but I doubt I ever will see that Kaku merit.. This purely my opinion, all the world !

[coin8coin8]

1. What flaws do you think this merit system has?

Regarding the defects of the merit system, I also thought about it. I think there are defects in the following aspects.
1）Merit is concentrated in the English section, and the local section of the merit is more difficult to obtain, and some statistics can prove it. For many non-native English speakers, they also have a lot of high-quality posts in the local section. If the same post is written in English, it may be easier to get Merit and get more Merit. But in the local section, it's hard to get Merit, or only get fewer Merit，this may cause local forums to lack incentives.


We can see that the total amount of Merits sent in the English section is about 7-8 times the total amount of the local section.

reference：https://public.tableau.com/profile/ddmrddmr#!/vizhome/BitcointalkMeritDashboard/WordCloud

2）There is no uniform standard for high quality, so some especially long posts may not make sense, but may be used by some “smart” alts, reply a long post and get 1 Merit, and at this time, you can't tell if this belongs to Merit abuse,Because this post doesn't make much sense, but you can't think it's spam.

2. How do you think merit system is abused? ( I don't want buy/sell as an answer )

I think the merit system is abused cannot be completely eliminated, and we can't catch all the abusers. If you suspect that some accounts may be abusing meirt, but there is only a small amount of evidence, then In this case, don't waste time collecting evidence. You should spend more time tracking those large-scale merit abusers.
After all, Merit will decay, as long as the source of abuse is removed, the remaining sporadic abusers will soon run out of Smerit.

[Alone055]

The system doesn't have flaws since its creation, but the flaws have been created after the implementation of the system, IMO.

I don't feel that the reason for quality posts to be missed is that people mostly Merit the posts that they agree with, but the reason behind that is the excessive spam that is posted after them, and no one with the right mind would dig deep in that shit only in the hope of finding a quality post to Merit it. I don't see any reason to blame the system for that.

On the other hand, those abusers would not leave any system to be flawless at all. They will play their part in ruining it completely, but fortunately, they only partly succeed in that. Have a look at the trust system. Even though it makes no sense for them to leave a trust on a profile since it doesn't make a difference, but they do abuse it by spamming people's profiles only because the system hits them hard in the face. But I think it is serving its purpose, as well as the Merit system, no matter how people try to turn them negative and use them the other way, they would still keep doing their work, to some extent.

[Shef198911]

The system doesn't have flaws since its creation, but the flaws have been created after the implementation of the system, IMO.

I don't feel that the reason for quality posts to be missed is that people mostly Merit the posts that they agree with, but the reason behind that is the excessive spam that is posted after them, and no one with the right mind would dig deep in that shit only in the hope of finding a quality post to Merit it. I don't see any reason to blame the system for that.

On the other hand, those abusers would not leave any system to be flawless at all. They will play their part in ruining it completely, but fortunately, they only partly succeed in that. Have a look at the trust system. Even though it makes no sense for them to leave a trust on a profile since it doesn't make a difference, but they do abuse it by spamming people's profiles only because the system hits them hard in the face. But I think it is serving its purpose, as well as the Merit system, no matter how people try to turn them negative and use them the other way, they would still keep doing their work, to some extent.

Well, you see, spam is a ban and you can put on a week and a warning, and just really hard to get in the home branch very hard and English is a ban and you get bad perevedeno message, I think this system is necessary to finish...

[ojanamon]

Day by day bitcointalk.org Forum becoming more stable and secure... For extra flexibility, security forum admin changes its rules... Such kind of rule is Merit system. Merit system reduces the scamming activities, more scammers involve themselves in unfit garbages Post which make forum badly.By newbie restrictions and requirements rule by theymos will reduce scamming, cheating. As a result forum will be more stable, secure and safety. I deeply support this moderation..

[Thirdspace]

~
1）Merit is concentrated in the English section, and the local section of the merit is more difficult to obtain, and some statistics can prove it. For many non-native English speakers, they also have a lot of high-quality posts in the local section. If the same post is written in English, it may be easier to get Merit and get more Merit. But in the local section, it's hard to get Merit, or only get fewer Merit，this may cause local forums to lack incentives.
https://i.imgur.com/tCsK6RU.png
https://i.imgur.com/Ukyncgp.png
We can see that the total amount of Merits sent in the English section is about 7-8 times the total amount of the local section.
~

Other thing I noticed (in those images) is that the top 3 most merited subforums are:
1. Announcements (Altcoins) 27,206
2. Russian 25,967
3. Meta 21,363
and Russian is having way higher number merits compared to other local boards
is this mean we're having a lot russian people registered and active in the forum?
or is this implying some other things...?

[darklus123]

It is heavily abused we can't deny that fact. Because of the
subjectivity. Plus the rules for abusing merit system is certainly not good IMO.

Most of the DT's here or mods only tagged those accounts  who were exchanging merits that are connected or has only one owner.


The only thing we could do here is to handout merit to those who we really think contributes something on the said topic and not just because you have the same opinion. On the other hand we can't do something to fix the said abuse. Especially the mutual understanding between two users like:

1. We have the same nationality and handing out a merit to his/er post is a good strategy as that user might also do the same for me.

2. The "indulgence" feeling when somebody handed out you a merit and you are thinking to also give that person to return the favor.


3. The merit gameplayers. (The real toxic users in this forum who will do illegal conversation and trade out merits for their own benefits)

[Abal Abal]

I think this forum has taken a very good step, and I have found no shortcomings in this merit system, which I see many people searching for and digging deeper into this forum.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

I think that the main flaw of the merit-system is that it lured all the attention of bitcointalk participants, leaving in the shadow the main topics devoted to the most important and initial issues of the forum. This system was intended as a motivation for improving the quality of posts, whereas in fact it resulted just in an increase in the number of comments. All conversations revolve around merits. Part of the participants are in pursuit of merits, and the other part writes about what exactly the first ones do wrong and why they don`t receive merits.

Instead of encouraging forum members to write more vivid, constructive and interesting posts about crypto-currencies, economy or trade, the merit-system drove the participants into a vicious circle. After all, in general, people receive merits for posts, one way or another devoted to merits. The merit-system features were misunderstood by the majority of bitcointalk members, and that`s how I see the main flaw.

I agree,

I don’t. There are lots of conversation about the merit system on the meta section. For conversations about bitcoin-related issues you have other sections. I've just replied to this post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5031965.msg45974359#msg45974359), for example.

[Jet Cash]

Oh dear, I've just given 2 merits to a full member.

I've been reading a lot of the threads here, and I think I'm going to adopt a new policy. Any newbie with a post count of over 100, or an activity of over 30, is going to be considered as a spambie, and I will be extra cautious about giving him any merits.

Polluting the boards with spam should be discouraged, and I think this is one way to do it.

[TheUltraElite]

Day by day bitcointalk.org Forum becoming more stable and secure... For extra flexibility, security forum admin changes its rules... Such kind of rule is Merit system.

Give us a break from your shitposting pajeet attitude. Stop talking about things you dont know or dont have the brain to comprehend.

Merit system reduces the scamming activities, more scammers involve themselves in unfit garbages Post which make forum badly.

Scamming and spamming are two remotely different things. Your post is as "garbage" as the rest 90% of the pajeets in this forum. You all bottomfeeders need to find another sexpit to crawl on.

By newbie restrictions and requirements rule by theymos will reduce scamming, cheating.

No, and No.

As a result forum will be more stable, secure and safety. I deeply support this moderation..

You are a shitposting one liner bounty spammer who is here to beg for merits. I appreciate your effort but you should do this in whatever local language you speak in rather than in Meta.

[ngoctunghp]

I have come across many merit spamming due to the new ranking update. Still, it was also taking place before this update happened but it has increased much these days as everyone has noticed.

I personally think at one point that this system is working in some parts of the forum but some people are just misguided about what posts should be merited as there is no single definition of what a merit deserving post is. Still, I read a statement from thyemos explaining what type of posts deserves merits.

I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

But I think many people are using merits to merit the posts that they agree with and not meriting the posts which are of high quality. ( I think this is also done by some merit sources )
And This is the reason why many of the quality posts are ignored.

This is a very big Flaw I think which should get some solution instead the main purpose of merits will just be lost and only the merited posts will be related to views and not for the quality an of the content.

I want some views about:

1. What flaws do you think this merit system has?

2. How do you think merit system is abused? ( I don't want buy/sell as an answer )

1. What flaws do you think this merit system has?
merit system is very good, it  is the tool to determine the high rank,who has many hight article quality,if not has this merit system,everyone the same,Legendary,hero member the same brand news,newbie? we need this tools to determine who prestige and who spam and not any vaild
2 How do you think merit system is abused?
i think you say: "abused" is not exactly,we has people and we have mistake,it is normal,nobody perfect,maybe some goods post not get merit but if they have many good quality post they will get merit because there are many people give merit for everyone. Bitcointalk can build topic to everyone can report some post with low quailty but they can get merit and topic about hight quality post but they don't get merit to admin of bitcointalk check again,everyone can monitor each other,who give merit for low quality post.they will be restricted or ban and replace other member if they has many the same mistake

[vlad230]

1. What flaws do you think this merit system has?

I would say one of the big flaws of the merit system is related to merit distribution distribution. A lot of good posts go unmerited because the merit sources are not looking at posts in some forums (Bitcoin & Altcoin Discussion, Local boards etc.).
Another one would be that merit is not moderated. You can complain all you want noting is going to change.

2. How do you think merit system is abused? ( I don't want buy/sell as an answer )

A lot of posts are being merited between friends or people that agree with it (like you have said) rather than being high quality.

I remember seeing posts merited with high amounts of merit just because someone was calling the other a "butt hurt idiot"...  Wtf is that all about?

[stingers]

-snip

Yes, one of very important reason for people not getting merits is that some members of the forum have misunderstood the purpose of the merit system.

-snip

You are just a thrash and your post is shit. Just bounty hunting is what you can do

-snip

This clearly shows that local boards are out merites and theymos should see this chart once for sure.

I think no one should have this mindset that only long posts should be merited, this has truly affected the merit system and in still going on as you can see. But instead I think the merit should be rewarded only if some efforts are put in the post by the user and not just because he has wrote a length post.

I don't feel that the reason for quality posts to be missed is that people mostly Merit the posts that they agree with, but the reason behind that is the excessive spam that is posted after them, and no one with the right mind would dig deep in that shit only in the hope of finding a quality post to Merit it. I don't see any reason to blame the system for that.

If they could not find a quality post that does no mean that they should just start meriting the view of other people to which they agree. It better to hold that merit until you find a really deserving post. Your reason is just worthless and we are not blaming the system we are trying to find the flaws and solve it.

-snip

My only suggestion to you is please first read your post before posting it. I just cant understand a single sentence.

-snip

Yes, some of the section where there are multiple merit deserving posts and quality contents are just very low in the list.

I think this sections should have more merit circulation than meta
1. Bitcoin Discussion
2. Alt-coin Discussion
3. Development and technical discussion

I am also shocked that there are 14680 merits to the deleted posts and I think most of this is a part of merit abuse

1. We have the same nationality and handing out a merit to his/er post is a good strategy as that user might also do the same for me.

2. The "indulgence" feeling when somebody handed out you a merit and you are thinking to also give that person to return the favor.


3. The merit gameplayers. (The real toxic users in this forum who will do illegal conversation and trade out merits for their own benefits)

You have truly highlighted the mindsets of some people here. Many people just think in the way you have explained and just give merits to the posts which surely don't deserve it. Your efforts in finding this views of people deserves a merit for sure.

-snip

You have a very positive way of looking at things. I think you should change it.

I've been reading a lot of the threads here, and I think I'm going to adopt a new policy. Any newbie with a post count of over 100, or an activity of over 30, is going to be considered as a spambie, and I will be extra cautious about giving him any merits.

I think this would not be a way to judge people by there activity or post counts. You should just check if they have put some effort in the posts. (Effort mean if they really have knowledge about the topic they are speaking and have given proper info )

I remember seeing posts merited with high amounts of merit just because someone was calling the other a "butt hurt idiot"...  Wtf is that all about?

Yes, I was just addressing to such type of merited posts. You will see much posts like them in the meta section everywhere!