Doubts about bitcoin these days...

[opentoe]

I finally had the thought today that in my opinion I don't think bitcoin can or will survive. Every day I hear news about exchanges being hacked, sites being taken down, coin being stolen on a daily basis day in and day out. Then Flexcoin shutdown right after Mt.Gox melt down. It almost makes our US banking industry look good. When do you have US banks getting hacked then closing down the next day? Then in that same day you'll most likely never see your bitcoin again, never to cash out on them. These aren't little players here, these are big players in the game....making huge waves. When ALL the news coming from the bitcoin industry is negative, where ever you read I just don't see how it could ever bounce back from where it once was.

When I got into bitcoin all I heard how safe it was, the encryption protects it, blah blah blah. It doesn't matter. Encryption or not, this crypto currency is more prone to being stolen then anything. I can't scour the forums all day, but when I do have the time to read, so many times I hear about coin being stolen from accounts, exchanges not paying people, etc, it just doesn't end.

I really do hate out US banking industries, but I also never had $1 stolen from me or worry about it. And money these days aren't really "money". They're just bits and bytes on a computer somewhere. I barely handle money itself anymore so it almost seems just like bitcoin to begin with, but without all the hacks and banks melting away all the time.

Soon as an exchange gets enough bitcoin you just are bound to hear soon it will be hacked or taken down for some reason. It's basically a way for the site operator(s) to scam people. We've seen it all too often here and it doesn't look like it will ever stop. Why? Because there are no consequences for anyone's actions. Steal as many bitcoin as you want, may get a slap on the wrist.

Even on the dark net, the ultimate drug selling site was so called "hacked" too, losing all their bitcoin that was in escrow. Everyone lost their coin. So here we have it. Legit or legal bitcoin related sites being hacked on a daily basis, being taken down on a daily basis and just leaving the trusting bitcoin community not what to think. I know there will be those die hard bitcoiner's out there that will defend bitcoin until they die, but if you just open your eyes a little bit and see what's going on it doesn't look good.

Apparently the bitcoin industry attracts the scum of the earth and unfortunately that's the way it will be viewed for years to come. The only people investing into the bitcoin community right now are only here to make massive amounts of money for themselves. Thery're not here to support the community or be part of something. It will only be a matter of time we'll see another news article or report on another exchange (any left?) going down or a large mass of coins being stolen again. Yep, bitcoin is in BETA and I think should basically stay that way.

[raid_n]

If you've lost money through gox or another exchange I'm sorry for you.

I'll give you a real world example of how you can equally lose your cash without bitcoin. If you had money with Lehman Brothers you'd be facing a similar situation as the gox users.
You need to differentiate between exchanges and bitcoin itself. If you have paper wallets for the bulk of your bitcoin and only a little in your own "hot wallet" then it is very unlikely that
anyone could steal all your coins. On the other hand if you left everything you have with a single company you are effectively trusting them to do the right thing.

Now with gox a lot of trust was already destroyed before it closed down. Trusting a company based in Japan run by a person such as mr. Karpeles with all your money is, mildly put, insane
[edit] there is absolutely nothing wrong with japan, it reads as if that was a problem. What I meant is that the company is located in a foreign country so you most likely would have problems if a legal battle were ever to ensue

[TERA]

I have permabearish thoughts about bitcoin sometimes, but they're not about the exchanges like you described. They're about a bitcoin being a beta software which will eventually become obselete, outclassed, or broken. A quantum computer or a genious mathematician might break EC, etc.

[raid_n]

I have permabearish thoughts about bitcoin sometimes, but they're not about the exchanges like you described. They're about a bitcoin being a beta software which will eventually become obselete, outclassed, or broken. A quantum computer or a genious mathematician might break EC, etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about ECDSA being broken. If that happens in a reliable and fast way bitcoin is probably the least of your worries.
You could always introduce a protocol update that supports even stronger encryption aswell. All you'd need to do is transfer the coins from old addresses to new ones.
If all cryptography becomes useless well then goodbye freedom, hello Orwellian state.

[Ibian]

Cool. Sell me your cheap coins?

And screw your quantum computers. Screw them right up your ass TERA. A matter replicator would make bitcoin obsolete too.

[mmitech]

you are going through a faith test faze, it is totally normal, you may top believing in bitcoin and move on, I saw many people coming in and going out the past year and half, everyone has a price....

but to say you no banks fails and big companies fails and no money is stolen from people in the old fashion system is totaly ignorant, you have no idea how things works, many big companies and banks get bailed out before failing just because the damage they will cause is huge, but the thing that people they dont know is the long term damage the cause by bailing them out is even bigger to the economy and it effects all people indirectly, it effects you in a way but you just dont feel it because it takes years, but when you the shit hits the fan you cant do nothing about it.

it is like cancer, it will cause slow death and slow you abilities you will suffer a long time before death but you live with it, compared to a car accident where you can lose you life instantly.


I've tested my faith many times, I've tested my faith at $20 when the price doubled and I said no chance it will go higher, did it again at 50, did it again at 100, did it again at 200...... but I overcome all my concers

[TERA]

I have permabearish thoughts about bitcoin sometimes, but they're not about the exchanges like you described. They're about a bitcoin being a beta software which will eventually become obselete, outclassed, or broken. A quantum computer or a genious mathematician might break EC, etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about ECDSA being broken. If that happens in a reliable and fast way bitcoin is probably the least of your worries.
You could always introduce a protocol update that supports even stronger encryption aswell. All you'd need to do is transfer the coins from old addresses to new ones.
If all cryptography becomes useless well then goodbye freedom, hello Orwellian state.

Can you explain the process by which all the coins would be transferred from old addresses to new addresses with the new encryption algorithm? Who is doing the transfer, and how did they get the private keys? After that, how do you go about distributing new public and private keys to each and every bitcoin user?

[raid_n]

I have permabearish thoughts about bitcoin sometimes, but they're not about the exchanges like you described. They're about a bitcoin being a beta software which will eventually become obselete, outclassed, or broken. A quantum computer or a genious mathematician might break EC, etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about ECDSA being broken. If that happens in a reliable and fast way bitcoin is probably the least of your worries.
You could always introduce a protocol update that supports even stronger encryption aswell. All you'd need to do is transfer the coins from old addresses to new ones.
If all cryptography becomes useless well then goodbye freedom, hello Orwellian state.

Can you explain the process by which all the coins would be transferred from old addresses to new addresses with the new encryption algorithm? Who is doing the transfer, and how did they get the private keys? After that, how do you go about distributing new public and private keys to each and every bitcoin user?

You introduce a new address format accepted by the protocol next to the old one. Anyone wishing to obtain the stronger encryption sends their own bitcoin to such a new address
Those that don't move their coins risk being attacked. We could then argue what will happen to those coins that are now lost but then become available through brute forcing.
In a sense it would be like mining bitcoins.

[edit] think of how you are now using change addresses. all that really is required is that the protocol accepts such a stronger address as a valid output

[TERA]

I have permabearish thoughts about bitcoin sometimes, but they're not about the exchanges like you described. They're about a bitcoin being a beta software which will eventually become obselete, outclassed, or broken. A quantum computer or a genious mathematician might break EC, etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about ECDSA being broken. If that happens in a reliable and fast way bitcoin is probably the least of your worries.
You could always introduce a protocol update that supports even stronger encryption aswell. All you'd need to do is transfer the coins from old addresses to new ones.
If all cryptography becomes useless well then goodbye freedom, hello Orwellian state.

Can you explain the process by which all the coins would be transferred from old addresses to new addresses with the new encryption algorithm? Who is doing the transfer, and how did they get the private keys? After that, how do you go about distributing new public and private keys to each and every bitcoin user?

You introduce a new address format accepted by the protocol next to the old one. Anyone wishing to obtain the stronger encryption sends their own bitcoin to such a new address
Those that don't move their coins risk being attacked. We could then argue what will happen to those coins that are now lost but then become available through brute forcing.
In a sense it would be like mining bitcoins.

[edit] think of how you are now using change addresses. all that really is required is that the protocol accepts such a stronger address as a valid output

It would not be like mining bitcoins because the difficulty would not increase. When the hackers get efficient enough at decrypting or brute forcing the address, all the coins will start to be compromised at once. They will be free bitcoins, instantly forfeited by anyone who did not switch over. If enough people did not switch, the supply side will be thrown into chaos.  Think about the 1,000,000 coins that haven't been touched in years. Think about all the presently lost coins.

[Ibian]

You don't keep any money in a bank, do you tera? It's gotta be all paper, right? After all, anything you can't hold in your hand is at risk of hacking from hackers.

[TERA]

You don't keep any money in a bank, do you tera? It's gotta be all paper, right? After all, anything you can't hold in your hand is at risk of hacking from hackers.

Bank transactions are reversible. If anything every goes wrong I will have human beings to speak with, resolving the situation and even hunting down the thief. It's likely that the bank itself would be legally liable for the losses, and not me. Also you can create bank accounts with restrictions and limits on the amount of and way funds can be transferred. Nobody would be able to just instantly transfer my entire account balance to some other account, even if they had access.

[MatTheCat]

Apparently the bitcoin industry attracts the scum of the earth and unfortunately that's the way it will be viewed for years to come. The only people investing into the bitcoin community right now are only here to make massive amounts of money for themselves. Thery're not here to support the community or be part of something. It will only be a matter of time we'll see another news article or report on another exchange (any left?) going down or a large mass of coins being stolen again. Yep, bitcoin is in BETA and I think should basically stay that way.

I think certainly in recent times, Joe Public's view of Bitcoin or any other crypto currency comes with a high risk of being burned by some bunch of shady bastard's and they aint going to come running into Bitocin with all their worthless fiat anytime soon. It doesn't help that all the exchanges are probably ranging between a bit shady (at best) right through to down right rip-off price fixing ponzi scheme running bastards (at worst). Bitcoin's meteoric rise, was probably largely to do with Karpeles ramping up the price with his fractional reserve Goxcoins and Goxbucks in order that he could leach of real BTC/real USD at the top of the market to cover his hacker losses and then some.

Gives pause for thought. The whole Bitcoin market and price discovery for the majority of its time has been based upon fraud. Not unlike the real financial world then, but at least that has got governments supporting it for when it goes tits up. Their aint gonna be another mad rush from the public to get into Bitcoin for some time. For Bitcoin to take the sort of jump that all Bitcoiners are rooting for, it will take an economic crisis, such as the one which was narrowly averted early this week in Ukraine when the EU announced $15B Aid. The day before that announcement, was the day of the mad price insensitive Bitcoin pile-in with probably much more capital heading in Bitcoin's direction.

Sounds pretty bad doesn't it? For Bitcoin's value to explode, which is something we all want to happen to satisfy our own greed, we need war, economic break-down, and human misery. Until then, it's bot trading on the exchanges keeping the price as buoyant as they can until the next X-Factor comes along.

Edit: Those individuals that drove the price up with their 3K buy-in walls. Anyone think that they might have cashed out yet? (they can't have, otherwise we would know all about it). Are they gonna cash out, and if so, will they do so as recklessly as they bought in?

[Ibian]

You don't keep any money in a bank, do you tera? It's gotta be all paper, right? After all, anything you can't hold in your hand is at risk of hacking from hackers.

Bank transactions are reversible. If anything every goes wrong I will have human beings to speak with, resolving the situation and even hunting down the thief. It's likely that the bank itself would be legally liable for the losses, and not me. Also you can create bank accounts with restrictions and limits on the amount of and way funds can be transferred. Nobody would be able to just instantly transfer my entire account balance to some other account, even if they had access.

Doesn't matter. If all banks and all governments get hacked there won't be anyone to bail you out. Id invest in gold and a bunker right away if I were you.

[TERA]

We are talking about the longevity of bitcoin itself here; not me and my personal savings. Banks are likely to last much longer than bitcoin, from a technological perspective. This is because when the encryption methods used by banks are broken, or come under threat of being broken, the banks will most likely be able to instantly upgrade to new protocols and continue to operate as if nothing happened, with no difference even noticed by the user. For bitcoin, on the other hand, it may be impossible to do such an upgrade or complete a transition in time and bitcoin will fail.

[Ibian]

We are talking about the longevity of bitcoin itself here; not me and my personal savings. Banks are likely to last much longer than bitcoin, from a technological perspective. This is because when the encryption methods used by banks are broken, or come under threat of being broken, the banks will most likely be able to instantly upgrade to new protocols and continue to operate as if nothing happened, with no difference even noticed by the user. For bitcoin, on the other hand, it may be impossible to do such an upgrade or complete a transition in time and bitcoin will fail.

We are talking about hackers. Anything can be hacked. Clearly, you should get out now while you still can.

[TERA]

The topic is "doubts about bitcoin".

Also this is not about "hackers" - it is about an encryption algorithm becoming obsolete. Bitcoin is a technology set a fixed point in time at the time of its creation - meanwhile the rest of technology continues to grow exponentially around it. Bitcoin may not be able to respond to the exponential growing technology in time to preserve itself, while banks will.

[FierceRadish]

So, does this come under the bracket: "signs of impending capitulation"?

[Bit_Happy]

....
If all cryptography becomes useless well then goodbye freedom, hello Orwellian state.

USA is very Orwellian in many ways already. There are a few bright spots like the pot freedom in CO, but that is not enough.

[donjoe]

Apparently the bitcoin industry attracts the scum of the earth and unfortunately that's the way it will be viewed for years to come. The only people investing into the bitcoin community right now are only here to make massive amounts of money for themselves. Thery're not here to support the community or be part of something.

Surprised? This is the way Bitcoin was designed from the get-go: as a store of value (i.e. for hoarders, for greedy egomaniacal individualists) rather than as a medium of exchange. In order to function primarily as a medium of exchange it would have to have a demurrage fee attached so that the more you keep your coins unused in your account, the more value they lose (see the Freicoin concept). But no, it's not designed to maximize trade and productive activities, it's designed to maximize hoarding and therefore it primarily attracts greedy people.

[Bit_Happy]

...I can't scour the forums all day, but when I do have the time to read, so many times I hear about coin being stolen from accounts, exchanges not paying people, etc, ....

You describe a need for security which the market is going to meet.
Consider blockchain.info, only the user has access to the private keys, they literally cannot run with the money...brilliant.
Why don't they open an exchange?