Blockchain-based web of trust

[JohnDoe]

The rise of the System D economy and trading between anonymous parties will promote a shift towards a reputation-based economy to facilitate commerce, so I think it's important to create a reliable web of trust system to support it. We already have the bitcoin-otc web of trust, which works perfectly fine now but has the problem of being centralized, and so it can be manipulated. Just like with currencies and dns, a decentralized web of trust would be preferable.

So basically the idea is to just embed a WoT system into a blockchain (with bitcoin-otc rules or similar) using a special transaction that says "address X gives a rating of +1 to address Y". Also it should be possible to transfer ones rating from one address to another to be able to launder it in case that the identity of the owner is compromised.

[ripper234]

Watching thread.

[becoin]

Just like with currencies and dns, a decentralized web of trust would be preferable.

Have you looked at the Ripple project and what they are working at recently?
http://ripple-project.org/

[ElectricMucus]

count me in 
Some thoughts and considerations later,

In the mean time I'd link this thread I made on a related topic.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50075.0

this gonna be awesome  (If it works out)

[Explodicle]

Here's an article on the subject:
http://bitcoinweekly.com/articles/webs-of-trust-and-how-to-decentralize-them

[paraipan]

Here's an article on the subject:
http://bitcoinweekly.com/articles/webs-of-trust-and-how-to-decentralize-them

great idea, hope we see it for real some day

i've posted an p2pMarket idea too, it came to us from the spanish forums

[becoin]

As I see it, Ripple is only geared towards debt payment, it wouldn't help me much in assessing the safety of buying stuff from an anonymous seller.

Debt is equal to trust. It is just another way of saying it. The size of debt is the size of consumed trust! If debt is repaid then trust is restored. If debt has reached the credit line maximum then trust is consumed 100%. Debt and trust are the two sides of one and the same coin!

[ElectricMucus]

Ok here some of my Ideas on the Subject.

At first privacy and trust don't go well together, and people still want both. So I think the most important technical detail we would have to figure out is how to combine them in such a way certain (weaker) levels of trust can be granted without exchanging Personal Data.
The idea to use a blockchain based technique could work in that direction. Heuristic measurements of the average length of the trust chains could work here.
If there are a sufficient number of independent links between persons they could still be quite long while providing an equal level of securety.

A quick knee-jerk math, something like:
cumulative_trust = karma / ( chain_length_1 / trust_1 + chain_length_2 / trust_2 + chain_length_3 / trust_3 + ... )

Second, provide 2 entry points into the trust chain:

One for people you already thrust very much like family and close friends or also people you meet in person. Here we can work by exchanging information in physical form to provide the most trustworthy connections (Ideally everybody should have some of those)
Getting that to work correctly might be quite challenging since at first when the project is still small the number of "islands" will be significantly high to high to provide the maximum effectiveness of the system right away.

Second we need a mechanism for other people to earn your trust. I think those 2 should be completely independent.
Yes this might make growth more difficult but it is the only way we can insure maximum effectiveness. This would be as straight forward as existing things like BTC OTC. People can decide to make the first step and trust the person initially, in exchange for some "karma points". It would be important not to make people hoard karma or see it as a currency, just a way to get everyones trust levels up.

At last,

Make the Software itself as modular and portable as possible, a web of trust is in its own isn't that convenient. In particular lets use the JSON format as bitcoin uses, I think it is always good to push that. (God I'm glad BTC doesn't use XML)
Then we need to make this possible to run as a webservice and a standalone application with a gui and cli. The extra work involved might be cumbersome but once the general interfaces are in place it shouldn't need any huge extra effort.

[jtimon]

Have you looked at the Ripple project and what they are working at recently?
http://ripple-project.org/

I understand the concept but haven't kept up with recent developments. As I see it, Ripple is only geared towards debt payment, it wouldn't help me much in assessing the safety of buying stuff from an anonymous seller. A WoT like bitcoin-otc does help a great deal in that department.

If you think ripple doesn't help you to safely buy stuff from an anonymous seller I think you haven't understood the concept.
You can pay with ripple. Ripple is a medium of exchange.
With ripple you could just use reputation as a currency.
For example, I give you 2 reputation points by paying you 2 units of currency I issue denominated in reputation points (or IOU 2 reputation points) and your web of trust can be represented within a ripple network.

Related links...

Reputation as currencies:

http://metacurrency.org/
http://www.webisteme.com/blog/?p=308

Ripple (and therefore a WoT too) inside a chain:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37505.0

[ThiagoCMC]

AWESOME!

[paraipan]

Have you looked at the Ripple project and what they are working at recently?
http://ripple-project.org/

I understand the concept but haven't kept up with recent developments. As I see it, Ripple is only geared towards debt payment, it wouldn't help me much in assessing the safety of buying stuff from an anonymous seller. A WoT like bitcoin-otc does help a great deal in that department.

If you think ripple doesn't help you to safely buy stuff from an anonymous seller I think you haven't understood the concept.
You can pay with ripple. Ripple is a medium of exchange.
With ripple you could just use reputation as a currency.
For example, I give you 2 reputation points by paying you 2 units of currency I issue denominated in reputation points (or IOU 2 reputation points) and your web of trust can be represented within a ripple network.

Related links...

Reputation as currencies:

http://metacurrency.org/
http://www.webisteme.com/blog/?p=308

Ripple (and therefore a WoT too) inside a chain:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37505.0

so you're proposing we go back to a debt system again ? banks are based on reputation too...

[jtimon]

so you're proposing we go back to a debt system again ? banks are based on reputation too...

Here I'm just proposing using ripple to implement the web of trust.
But yes, debt as medium of exchange has been working well for most of our history:

http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/

What's wrong with debt?
The problem is a monetary base that needs debt to grow exponentially I think.
Also the privileges that banks currently have. Only their credit/debt can be used as a medium of exchange.
What we have today is kind of...
Banks only ripple where commercial banks need "reserves" of central banks credit and central banks always issue credit at interest.
It's really strange, the central bank charges interest on its IOUs (the currency). That's because the central bank doesn't produce anything and its IOUs are the only thing it can charge interest on.

[paraipan]

@jtimon yeah, my opinion is that you chose the wrong forum and thread, altogether, to propose that

[jtimon]

@jtimon yeah, my opinion is that you chose the wrong forum and thread, altogether, to propose that

About the forum, all bitcoiners are monetary reformists and many of them sympathize with ripple.
About the thread, I'm just proposing an implementation for the WoT that is described in the topic. That way the chain with WoT would also have Ripple.
Any disadvantage in my proposal that I don't see?

[FreddyFender]

Currency in the ripple system is tied to reputation through indebtedness. Contractual obligation of works yet to be produced. Works already performed are forms of value that require some type of payment through a monetary-based system. Valuation does not always have to be monetary, hence barter systems and black market off-the-books IOUs. Two balances of debt and credit create currency to drive works and the contracts that support future works. Other forms of value would be memes and the transcendent nature of cooperative systems.
Bitcoin is an adaptation of a new meme applied to a highly competitive system - this transformation alone is valuable but still just one anchor of the triangle which will push all weaker systems aside. The other forms of valuation are under-utilized and ready to be exploited wholesale. Any guess as to what they are?
Ideas and the valuation of ideas is what the next anchor is. A simple app designed to foster real grouping, devoid of FUD and their ilk through a WoT that is fail-safe. Diaspora* is set to be one such engine, likely to require time and effort. Everyone is searching for that idea that infiltrates society at a deep level akin to facebook/myspace/aol/MSNMessenger which all grandmas will use and delight in. I am working on mine and I hope everyone involved in Bitcoin is thinking up that next killer app to compliment what has already been created here. Ripple/frecoin/OT server/blindbitcoin/TOR networks/MESH nets are here to help what is currently built and supports the anchor. The next anchor point is just over the horizon, possibly to come from someone involved in these meme-changing projects.
FF

[paraipan]

@jtimon yeah, my opinion is that you chose the wrong forum and thread, altogether, to propose that

About the forum, all bitcoiners are monetary reformists and many of them sympathize with ripple.
About the thread, I'm just proposing an implementation for the WoT that is described in the topic. That way the chain with WoT would also have Ripple.
Any disadvantage in my proposal that I don't see?

ok, i must have misunderstood the title myself... isn't about a way to store people reputation somehow ?
i didn't saw anything about paying with that... only bitcoins, transferable store of value not based on trust, different concepts i guess

[becoin]

Currency in the ripple system is tied to reputation through indebtedness. Contractual obligation of works yet to be produced. Works already performed are forms of value that require some type of payment through a monetary-based system. Valuation does not always have to be monetary, hence barter systems and black market off-the-books IOUs. Two balances of debt and credit create currency to drive works and the contracts that support future works. Other forms of value would be memes and the transcendent nature of cooperative systems.
Bitcoin is an adaptation of a new meme applied to a highly competitive system - this transformation alone is valuable but still just one anchor of the triangle which will push all weaker systems aside. The other forms of valuation are under-utilized and ready to be exploited wholesale. Any guess as to what they are?
Ideas and the valuation of ideas is what the next anchor is. A simple app designed to foster real grouping, devoid of FUD and their ilk through a WoT that is fail-safe. Diaspora* is set to be one such engine, likely to require time and effort. Everyone is searching for that idea that infiltrates society at a deep level akin to facebook/myspace/aol/MSNMessenger which all grandmas will use and delight in. I am working on mine and I hope everyone involved in Bitcoin is thinking up that next killer app to compliment what has already been created here. Ripple/frecoin/OT server/blindbitcoin/TOR networks/MESH nets are here to help what is currently built and supports the anchor. The next anchor point is just over the horizon, possibly to come from someone involved in these meme-changing projects.
FF

I can hardly follow your thoughts, sir. You'd better stick to KISS principle - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

Ripple and ripple like payment systems can be a perfect addition to bitcoin. A payment system that is based on "trust-no-one" principal (like bitcoin) is terribly expensive to serve everyday commercial transactions and can not compete with current fiat money in terms of efficiency. It is TRUST that makes payment systems competitive (unfortunately, vulnerable as well). Trust and debt are just the two sides of one and the same coin. Debt is just the name of monetized trust. The problem with current fiat monetary systems is that the "trust-no-one" element is missing entirely and this is why trust can be (and is) abused all down the line leading to mountains of debt.

Having said that, IMHO the most promising path to follow is a combination between "trust-no-one" currency like bitcoin and "trust-up-to-a-limit" payment system like ripple where unit of account is bitcoin. All purchases must be processed and booked on the bases of trust and if trading agreement expires or limit of trust (debt limit) is reached before that, all outstanding balances must be cleared via cash settlement (bitcoin transaction). Trying to technically integrate trust in the existing bitcoin chain is a major mistake because this would make bitcoin vulnerable. Both bitcoin block chain and the corresponding ripple block chain that is using bitcoin as unit of account, must be kept strictly separate following dichotomy principle - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotomy

[jtimon]

@jtimon yeah, my opinion is that you chose the wrong forum and thread, altogether, to propose that

About the forum, all bitcoiners are monetary reformists and many of them sympathize with ripple.
About the thread, I'm just proposing an implementation for the WoT that is described in the topic. That way the chain with WoT would also have Ripple.
Any disadvantage in my proposal that I don't see?

ok, i must have misunderstood the title myself... isn't about a way to store people reputation somehow ?

Yes, and to the somehow, I say through ripple.

i didn't saw anything about paying with that... only bitcoins, transferable store of value not based on trust, different concepts i guess

No, this topic is not about paying with something different from chain coins, but JohnDoe said ripple didn't serve as a medium of exchange and I corrected him.

[jtimon]

But this system would have no rules, one could issue any amount of reputation points to any address.

I thought your proposal hadn't limitations neither, just the possibility to extend give reputation from one address to the other.
Each client could interpret these reputations points differently according to different needs.

If it's left up to the user to filter and interpret the reputation ratings then it would be the same as using a new Namecoin namespace for it.

I don't really get this part.

Btw, I do think that an IOU network system would be a nice addition to altcoins, but separate from the WoT.

Great.
My main worries on this service are DoS attacks.
I guess miners could just always charge at least a little fee to avoid them.