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Author Topic: If Greece defaults/collapses anything is possible  (Read 5408 times)
abracadabra
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November 02, 2011, 01:46:44 AM
 #21

They protest cause they are tired of a fail government that led the whole nation to that shitty situation. They keep paying and paying while the government just waste and waste and now THEY have to pay more to fix all the government fail. Of course they protest!

Uhm.. not really.  They are protesting because they are being asked to pay their fair share.  Greeks are notorious for circumventing and avoiding the payment of taxes.

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abracadabra
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November 02, 2011, 01:49:08 AM
 #22

... before it joined the Euro it had rampant monetary inflation on top of unsustainable debt.


Actually, even after they joined they had inflation.  They just fixed the numbers so that it didn't look like they did.  Grin

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November 02, 2011, 02:22:53 AM
 #23

Greece could print their own currency and fix it to the Euro. Then they could print as many Euro's as they like and get out of debt.

This new Greek currency could be printed by their government debt free (not through the FedRes debt system). They can avoid inflation by setting legislative limits on the fiat printed. People need to realize that the power to print money is better in the hands of a politician than a banker.

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November 02, 2011, 02:27:00 AM
 #24

Greece could print their own currency and fix it to the Euro. Then they could print as many  as they like and get out of debt.

Does not compute!  You can't peg one currency to another currency and then print as much as you want.  Sure you can say it is pegged but people will trade at what the market believes is the comparable rate not the official rate.  Ask Zimbabwe.

Plus Greece doesn't have the foreign currency reserves necessary to keep their exchange rate pegged.  The Chinese central bank can do this because of their massive holdings of dollars & Yuan.  They actively trade in the market and use their large capital position to make trading against the central bank a losing proposition.  As long as the market has "faith" in the central banks ability to hold the peg the peg will hold. 

Not only does Greece not have the foreign currency reserves to pull this off they also don't have the fiscal or monetary discipline of the Chinese.  The more national currency they print out the harder it becomes (and the more foreign currency reserve it requires) for the central bank to hold the peg.

If the peg fails well that is a vote of noconfidence by the market and the currency will be crushed as all that trading pressure accelerates as people jump in with levered positions to gain from the cental banks failure to hold the peg.


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This new Greek currency could be printed by their government debt free (not through the FedRes debt system). They can avoid inflation by setting legislative limits on the fiat printed. People need to realize that the power to print money is better in the hands of a politician than a banker.

Yeah unlimited govt printing backed up by nothing except the awesome fiscal responsibility of the nation of Greece.  I would love to see the FOREX markets open on the GREEK:EURO cross when that happens.
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November 02, 2011, 02:34:50 AM
 #25

By anything I mean that as soon as the current system fails, a new system is bound to take over. Let us all hope that Greece will keep skrewing up and finally go bust. That may allow for Bitcoin to be accepted as a safe haven and a respectable option instead of fiat driven currencies that are defined by scams, corruption and fuck ups all the time.

Great to have you run a country into the ground Mr. Papandreou.

..i hate market-zynism..

just because you don't like capitalism (i don't like it neither!!) you do not have to hope everything will collapse and be destroyed.
In fact: if greece collapses, NOBODY will be better of. for both the ppl of greece and the european union i hope a default will never happen!!

shame on you for getting exited and all horny about a whole country going up in flames and not beeing able of maintaining even the most essential interests of its people!!  Sad
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November 02, 2011, 02:35:00 AM
 #26

It seems impossible to pay but in reality there's a lot more that can happen... looking at the history books there's no limit to the inhumanity of what can happen over debt. Perhaps a group of muslim countries could buy half the country and call it Palestine!

They should default ASAP like Argentina did in 2002. That will be hard too though. When Argentina did many middle class people in particular couldn't get drugs and died evicted.

It could be really bad, or it could be like Iceland's default.  It had winners and loosers, but it did not cause a long term meltdown.  

http://www.bondvigilantes.com/2011/09/02/ireland-austerity-vs-iceland-default-whos-winning-and-a-twitter-update/

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November 02, 2011, 04:06:20 AM
 #27

By anything I mean that as soon as the current system fails, a new system is bound to take over. Let us all hope that Greece will keep skrewing up and finally go bust. That may allow for Bitcoin to be accepted as a safe haven and a respectable option instead of fiat driven currencies that are defined by scams, corruption and fuck ups all the time.

Great to have you run a country into the ground Mr. Papandreou.

..i hate market-zynism..

just because you don't like capitalism (i don't like it neither!!) you do not have to hope everything will collapse and be destroyed.
In fact: if greece collapses, NOBODY will be better of. for both the ppl of greece and the european union i hope a default will never happen!!

shame on you for getting exited and all horny about a whole country going up in flames and not beeing able of maintaining even the most essential interests of its people!!  Sad


The "I hope they fail" sentiment arises because people are sick of having their tax dollars given to those who don't deserve it. This is a pretty core human feeling being triggered. I think there's a perhaps sub-conscious realization that things will indeed have to get very bad, for everyone, in order for the status quo to change much. Hence the willingness of some to hope for a system(world)-wide blow-up.

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November 02, 2011, 04:36:26 AM
 #28



It could be really bad, or it could be like Iceland's default.  It had winners and loosers, but it did not cause a long term meltdown.  



It's much too late for that.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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November 02, 2011, 05:04:10 AM
 #29


The same is true for the US - Obama is not really to blame for the real fundamental problems. Rather, it's a couple generations of people who've grown up to believe Government should provide for them.

I wonder if that's because the government said "pay your taxes and we'll provide R, Q, W, X, Y, and Z and you won't have to worry about them".


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November 02, 2011, 06:03:14 AM
 #30


The same is true for the US - Obama is not really to blame for the real fundamental problems. Rather, it's a couple generations of people who've grown up to believe Government should provide for them.

I wonder if that's because the government said "pay your taxes and we'll provide R, Q, W, X, Y, and Z and you won't have to worry about them".



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All that's left is to sweep up the pieces and move on.

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November 02, 2011, 02:24:00 PM
 #31

I'm looking forward to the Greek people refusing the debts that their so-called "leaders" foisted upon them, just as Iceland did.  I am also looking forward to the Occupy protests continue to gain steam in the US and around the world and result in the American people repudiating the debts foisted upon them.  These are certainly interesting times.  Will we see bankers hanging from light poles?
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November 02, 2011, 02:45:40 PM
 #32

Greek protestors "fostered" that debt on themselves.

It is called a massive welfare state where nobody pays taxes.


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November 02, 2011, 05:41:08 PM
 #33

Will we see bankers hanging from light poles?

Doubtful.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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November 02, 2011, 06:32:32 PM
 #34

Honestly guys stuff like this happens regularly twice a century in Europe.

First comes the financial problems,  like massive inflation (which Greece is about to experience when they drop the Euro... and Germany experienced in the 1930's)

Then comes the finger pointing and scape goating .. (clearly that's happening now as it did in the 1930's)

Then comes the protests (clearly that's happening now like in the 1930's)

Then comes one country saying "f this...  it's now or never"  ...  within a matter of months someone starts shooting...  then others.. then others...

History never repeats itself,  but it often rhymes.

Trust me guys... if history is any indication (and it appears it is in this case)  their is going to be blood in the streets of various European capitals within a matter of months...   I don't think Germany will take it well when they find out they are not going to get paid back from the greeks... and when the italians default as well as the spanish you are going to see something that you haven't seen in 70 years.





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November 02, 2011, 06:42:12 PM
 #35

Greek protestors "fostered" that debt on themselves.

It is called a massive welfare state where nobody pays taxes.


My observation of events was that Goldmann Sachs worked with Greece's "leaders" to gain the country entry to the EU by making them appear financially stronger than they were.  Austerity measures began immediately.  That's how the IMF always does it: create the debt, kill the economy, vacuum up the assets, fuck the people.  The bankers have been circling since 2010 when the first defaults were being negotiated.  Loans were arranged that could never be repaid because this allows the bankers to buy up the possessions of the people for pennies on the dollar.

The same process will be played out in the United States too, unless the people repudiate the debt and hang bankers from light poles.
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November 02, 2011, 06:50:05 PM
 #36

The same process will be played out in the United States too, unless the people repudiate the debt and hang bankers from light poles.

+1

This is not just a european problem.

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November 02, 2011, 09:21:40 PM
 #37

The bankers have been circling since 2010 when the first defaults were being negotiated. 

Not a student of history, are you?  "The bankers" have been doing this for hundreds of years.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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November 02, 2011, 09:29:58 PM
 #38

The bankers have been circling since 2010 when the first defaults were being negotiated. 

Not a student of history, are you?  "The bankers" have been doing this for hundreds of years.

Nothing in my statement implies bankers haven't been doing this for years. Dick.
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November 02, 2011, 09:46:10 PM
 #39

Is Grece's debt owned mostly by Greeks, like in US and Italy, or by outside nations?

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November 02, 2011, 10:43:23 PM
 #40

Is Grece's debt owned mostly by Greeks, like in US and Italy, or by outside nations?

By and large, by non-Greeks.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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