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Author Topic: Bitcoin is a canary in a coal mine  (Read 139 times)
thesavoyard
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October 30, 2018, 08:09:04 AM
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 You are being duped. You celebrate the lack of regulation around Bitcoin as a win for financial freedom, but you are being out maneuvered by the people who want to destroy it. These decisions are not being made democratically, they are made behind closed doors at places like the G20 conference and the Bilderberg group. Bitcoin will be legally considered an asset, not a payment system or currency. Time to celebrate? We've escaped the authoritarian regulation of the financial industry.

 Except that is exactly how they will destroy Bitcoin. You see, if Bitcoin isn't a payment system or currency, banks are not behaving anti-competitively.They are simply refusing to do business with a high risk asset, and you have no legal recourse to challenge them. In Europe, every small business that deals with cryptocurrency is being locked out of finance. The door is closed, the bureaucrats decided. No vote was held, the democratically elected parliaments never had a debate. You cannot petition any branch of the government for aid or guidance. You have to close your business, lose your livelihood and accept that your fate was decided by illiberal bureaucrats. If it is any consolation, you're not alone. Private ATM operators, tech companies and anyone who threatens bank profits are also being suppressed.

 
 In the Netherlands, Klaas Knot, the head of De Nederlandsche Bank (DNB), the central bank, a politician of exceptional corruption, has decided to wage war on cash and cryptocurrency. A politically exposed person who solicited a bank under his authority for a loan of 1.2 million eur for a house worth 950k eur. With the extremely favorable interest rate of 1.3%. Now if you are current with internationally accepted anti-money laundering policy, this is a blatant bribe of a politically exposed person. No ramifications have been implemented. He rules the DNB in a corporatist manner. Like the old Monarchy of the Netherlands or like Benito Mussolini, his banks are an extension of his authority. He is illiberal and does not answer to constitutional means to achieve his goals. In fact, a week after I personally submitted a complaint, all of my accounts came under strict scrutiny. My personal account, my professional account on Bitstamp, even the service I used on the weekends, satos.nl all began blocking the normal operation of our business. Probably for the fear of retaliation themselves.

 We are the only company operating in the Netherlands that has no anonymous transaction policies. Our Bitstamp professional account was approved by Bitstamp during the time they were applying for a banking license from the UK. They were under intense scrutiny from UK regulators. So our AML policy was approved by the UK by proxy. We have since discovered weaknesses in that policy that could allow structuring and closed those gaps. We have reached out to numerous Dutch agencies including the FIU (Financial Intelligence Unit) in order to strengthen our policies. We were completely ignored. The Dutch government has displayed no interest in preventing money laundering or implementing any sort of guidelines, they simply want to destroy the cryptocurrency market. We deal in cryptocurrency and cash, two high risk fields, but not as high risk as GWK Travelex, who deals in cash to cash transactions. Yet they have regulatory guidelines and continue to operate.

 Furthermore, the current environment in the Netherlands is even more frightening. Under Klaas Knot, cash services are being more and more restricted. Now many Dutch businesses have been forced to go debit card only (pin). This forces all consumers to use a bank, since banks decide who you can do business with, this strengthens Klaas Knot's economic authority. None of this was decided democratically. Anti-money laundering policy is being used as a weapon to suppress legal business instead of being used to prevent money laundering. After all, it's the United States that keeps catching Dutch banks in the act of laundering money for cartels and terrorists, not the Netherlands.

 As you see, we the most vulnerable, are the canary in the coal mine. Our duty is to warn the people of the rising toxicity. We do this by testing the legal system and symptomatically exposing corruption and anti-constitutional policies. We have to present legal challenges to financial authoritarianism, solid evidence that we have take to the press and the people. To do this, we will have to get involved, we have to unite. We will not be suppressed by exclusion.

 As of today I am starting a civil rights group for cryptocurrencies and associated businesses in Europe. I will start the process with our law firm in France, a country that adheres to a more constitutional system. I ask you to keep an eye on this thread for updates, and join our foundation once it is formed and legally recognized. I will keep you posted.


 

 

 

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October 30, 2018, 10:28:30 AM
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As you see, we the most vulnerable, are the canary in the coal mine. Our duty is to warn the people of the rising toxicity. We do this by testing the legal system and symptomatically exposing corruption and anti-constitutional policies. We have to present legal challenges to financial authoritarianism, solid evidence that we have take to the press and the people. To do this, we will have to get involved, we have to unite. We will not be suppressed by exclusion.
Do you mean the bitcoin community,uniting to combat corruption in the Netherlands?
Exposing corrupt officials and challenging anti constitutional laws??

Is that really the duty of the bitcoin world,i honestly do not think so,we do not have enough powers nor facts to act as whistle blowers
Bitcoin is fairly accepted in the Netherlands,under no ban, but under regulations just like in the USA

As of today I am starting a civil rights group for cryptocurrencies and associated businesses in Europe. I will start the process with our law firm in France, a country that adheres to a more constitutional system. I ask you to keep an eye on this thread for updates, and join our foundation once it is formed and legally recognized. I will keep you posted.
This topic clearly looks more politics than bitcoin related in my honest opinion,and I really feel it'll be better suited and profitable in politics and society section.
HeRetiK
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October 30, 2018, 10:35:56 AM
 #3

[...] if Bitcoin isn't a payment system or currency, banks are not behaving anti-competitively.They are simply refusing to do business with a high risk asset, and you have no legal recourse to challenge them.

This would be also true if Bitcoin were to be treated as a foreign currency, for example. To some extend banks can choose which currency they deal with and with which payment system they integrate. Obviously they have to accept the legal tender of their respective countries and follow standards such as SEPA. However nothing would make it obligatory for banks to deal in Bitcoin, even if it were globally legally recognized as a currency. Just like European banks don't have to deal in USD and US banks don't have to deal in EUR.


In Europe, every small business that deals with cryptocurrency is being locked out of finance.

I'm sorry to hear if that's the case in the Netherlands. It definitely isn't the case for every European country. Germany and Austria for example has many companies dealing in crypto, partially well connected to the classical Banking system (eg. the publicy traded Bitcoin Group in Germany), partially well connected to other established infrastructure from the old guard (eg. BitPanda cooperating with the Austrian postal service). Ledger in France and SatoshiLabs in the Czech Republic seem to be flourishing, but to be fair they don't have to deal with finance directly.

Worrying developments in the Netherlands regardless and hopefully not the shape of things to come.


[...] Furthermore, the current environment in the Netherlands is even more frightening. Under Klaas Knot, cash services are being more and more restricted. Now many Dutch businesses have been forced to go debit card only (pin). This forces all consumers to use a bank, since banks decide who you can do business with, this strengthens Klaas Knot's economic authority. None of this was decided democratically. Anti-money laundering policy is being used as a weapon to suppress legal business instead of being used to prevent money laundering. After all, it's the United States that keeps catching Dutch banks in the act of laundering money for cartels and terrorists, not the Netherlands.

The war on cash is definitely a worrying one. To add insult to injury it's being sold as a matter of transparency, security and accountability while none of these values appear to be meaningfully applied to large scale money laundering and tax "optimization".

It is worth noting though that the war on cash appears to come in part from the private (non-finance) sector as well. At least to my understanding there seems to be a trend where some shops and chains in the US don't accept cash anymore and only credit or debit cards. So much for legal tender.


As you see, we the most vulnerable, are the canary in the coal mine. Our duty is to warn the people of the rising toxicity. We do this by testing the legal system and symptomatically exposing corruption and anti-constitutional policies. [...]

I will be keeping an eye on this thread.

thesavoyard
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October 30, 2018, 11:30:53 AM
 #4

Quote
Do you mean the bitcoin community,uniting to combat corruption in the Netherlands?
Exposing corrupt officials and challenging anti constitutional laws??

Is that really the duty of the bitcoin world,i honestly do not think so,we do not have enough powers nor facts to act as whistle blowers
Bitcoin is fairly accepted in the Netherlands,under no ban, but under regulations just like in the USA

Not just in the Netherlands, but the Netherlands that was once considered crypo friendly is a poignant example. Bitcoin is popular in the Netherlands, it would be much more popular if a business that accepts it were able to keep a bank account. The few that do accept it, were grandfathered in or hide it from there bank. Only a tiny "Bitcoin accepted here" on the shop window, no online advertisements whatsoever.

 The BTC community will have to stop being apathetic to others in the market. If you want BTC to be legitimized, we will have to combat suppression. The best way to do that is to form associations that represent our common interests.

Quote

This topic clearly looks more politics than bitcoin related in my honest opinion,and I really feel it'll be better suited and profitable in politics and society section.

I disagree, this is an informative post about existential threats to BTC, this is the most appropriate forum. This is not a political debate thread, unless some disagree that BTC should be treated with legitimacy.


Quote
This would be also true if Bitcoin were to be treated as a foreign currency, for example. To some extend banks can choose which currency they deal with and with which payment system they integrate. Obviously they have to accept the legal tender of their respective countries and follow standards such as SEPA. However nothing would make it obligatory for banks to deal in Bitcoin, even if it were globally legally recognized as a currency. Just like European banks don't have to deal in USD and US banks don't have to deal in EUR.

It's true that we cannot force banks to use BTC, nor should we try. But banks are excluding any company that deals in or accepts cryptocurrency. Since BTC is being classified as an asset instead of a currency or payment system, banks cannot be challenged for suppressing competition. It's access to financial services for companies that deal in and advance crypto that's at stake.

Quote
I'm sorry to hear if that's the case in the Netherlands. It definitely isn't the case for every European country. Germany and Austria for example has many companies dealing in crypto, partially well connected to the classical Banking system (eg. the publicy traded Bitcoin Group in Germany), partially well connected to other established infrastructure from the old guard (eg. BitPanda cooperating with the Austrian postal service). Ledger in France and SatoshiLabs in the Czech Republic seem to be flourishing, but to be fair they don't have to deal with finance directly.

Worrying developments in the Netherlands regardless and hopefully not the shape of things to come.

On the contrary, they allow a few well established players to continue with often exclusive deals with certain banks. This make our market less competitive and stifles real growth. It's small business that is being denied, we can't afford the legal teams some of the big players have.

Like I said, we're like the canary in the coal mine, the level of suppression hasn't hurt the big players, it's killing the small ones though.

Thank you both for your comments, I hope we can get more in the community interested in standing up for their rights.



ngm22585
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October 30, 2018, 11:38:49 AM
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This post reeks of paranoia, and seems to be written off more emotion than fact.


HeRetiK
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October 30, 2018, 12:26:01 PM
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Quote
I'm sorry to hear if that's the case in the Netherlands. It definitely isn't the case for every European country. Germany and Austria for example has many companies dealing in crypto, partially well connected to the classical Banking system (eg. the publicy traded Bitcoin Group in Germany), partially well connected to other established infrastructure from the old guard (eg. BitPanda cooperating with the Austrian postal service). Ledger in France and SatoshiLabs in the Czech Republic seem to be flourishing, but to be fair they don't have to deal with finance directly.

Worrying developments in the Netherlands regardless and hopefully not the shape of things to come.

On the contrary, they allow a few well established players to continue with often exclusive deals with certain banks. This make our market less competitive and stifles real growth. It's small business that is being denied, we can't afford the legal teams some of the big players have.

Like I said, we're like the canary in the coal mine, the level of suppression hasn't hurt the big players, it's killing the small ones though.

Thank you both for your comments, I hope we can get more in the community interested in standing up for their rights.

Bitcoin.de [1], Coinfinity [2] and SatoshiLabs [3][4] have less than 30 employees each. That's far from being "big players". Established, yes, but due to being early birds in the market, not due to their size and raw market capital. Ledger with its more than 100 employes [5] is quite sizeable and BitPanda with its more than 70 employees is nothing to scoff at either [6], but still, you don't have to be huge to make it in this market.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin.de
[2] https://coinfinity.co/about-en/
[3] https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/satoshilabs
[4] https://trezor.io/team/
[5] https://www.ledger.fr/the-people-behind-ledger/
[6] http://klanschek.com/

davis196
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October 30, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
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Every sitizen of Netherlands is a EU sitizen as well.As a EU sitizen,he/she can use financial services in all the 27 EU countries without any restrictions.This is supposed to be the European law and all the banks have to abide by it.If Netherlands isn't crypto-friendly country,the dutch sitizens have the right to register accounts in other EU countries that are more crypto-friendly.

thesavoyard
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October 30, 2018, 01:05:20 PM
Last edit: November 12, 2018, 06:29:39 AM by thesavoyard
 #8

Every sitizen of Netherlands is a EU sitizen as well.As a EU sitizen,he/she can use financial services in all the 27 EU countries without any restrictions.This is supposed to be the European law and all the banks have to abide by it.If Netherlands isn't crypto-friendly country,the dutch sitizens have the right to register accounts in other EU countries that are more crypto-friendly.

Please list the banks that allow business that deal with cryptocurrency. I've been doing this research for over a year. Good luck!


Also, 30 employees for a tech company is a lot. Book-pal.com did over 5 million a year with 8 permanat and a few Temps. What you're talking about is a company that does well over €10,000,000 a year in revenue. We also don't have inside knowledge of what they face. I guarantee it's bleaker than you realize.

thesavoyard
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October 30, 2018, 01:11:49 PM
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This post reeks of paranoia, and seems to be written off more emotion than fact.




Easily said by someone who has no knowledge of the real situation. We're not the only ones, we do have an association and all of our members have the same problem. It's apathy that guarantees BTCs failure.

 As long as you get your money though right?

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November 07, 2018, 04:43:41 PM
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I agree regarding your issues with Bitstamp.  I don't know how much further it spreads.  Don't use Bitstamp.  They are currently not performing USD fiat withdrawals. My guess is some kind of money crunch or theft that they refuse to publicize. There are people that have been waiting over 2 months for their funds to be moved out of Bitstamp. There are people looking to spearhead a class action lawsuit against them.
thesavoyard
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November 12, 2018, 05:49:25 AM
 #11

@abracadabra

Sorry to hear that, they've been very good to us dealing in EUR. They are back to normal as well, no problem with withdraws.


 I just found an older article from July outlining illegal strategies laid public by the EU parliament. You would think a non-democracy like the EU would make an attempt to appear legitimate.

https://bitcoinist.com/eu-parliament-battle-banks-bitcoin/

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