In search of Fascism

[SirArthur]

For ages "Fascism" has been used as pure insult, this attitude deprived it from meaning as calling one Fascist or SoB resumes to the same, doesn't exactly means he is indeed a fascist or his mother is a prostitute. Madeleine Albright lately wrote on this subject over the very same concern.

What IS Fascism on strict sense?

From the little Mussolini left behind him, we can establish that any ideology who wants to centralize full power at the State is a Fascist ideology, but little more can be establish beyond the burden of doubt to be or not fascist behavior or ideology, as we start to collide with other ideologies, such as communism, which, by such narrow definition, are fascists, or even worse extreme fascists, as the state controls absolutely everything on society.

So... how can we define and give it a meaning?

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[Moloch]

communism, which, by such narrow definition, are fascists, or even worse extreme fascists, as the state controls absolutely everything on society.

Communists are not fascists... they are literally on the opposite ends of the political spectrum

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy

Fascism is supporting a dictator/king to dictate laws at his whim, instead of a governing body like congress... communism is democratic compared to fascism... in communism, the will of the people is what is most important... in fascism, the will of the dictator is the only thing that matters

Trump is a fascist like Kim Jong-Un and Vladmir Putin... that's why he likes them so much... he wants to BE them

[SirArthur]

You entry ends up resuming why Fascism is keen to be just an insult deprived of actual and concise meaning.

First of, let's avoid charts. Charts are OK for a glance on comparing BTCUSD pair performance, but when it's to define something they add more noise than anything else.
Let me show you how your chart translates on to "Personal Freedom"*



Then you continue with an anti-Trump bias, but Trump, as well as Putin, is an elected body, this means the people voted them for be their representatives. This implies that you just consider it to be democratic when it fill in your bias, otherwise are fascists, resuming "the will of the people" to your own will.

* - There's no such thing as "collective freedom", the collective is the only constraint of your freedom to start with. In a small scale it can be resumed as when you were single to when you're married, while single you want to go somewhere, you just go (as long as you've the means to get there, obviously), when you aren't you've to try to convince your wife to go or let you go.

The wikipedia entry is also public domain...

[Moloch]

Trump, as well as Putin, is an elected body, this means the people voted them for be their representatives.

Hitler was elected, Mussolini was elected, Mao Zedong was elected... most fascist dictators are elected

Some of them rig the elections by murdering their opponent, throwing them in jail, banning them from being listed on the ballot, etc

Putin didn't win with 77% of the vote because people love him that much... he rigged the election

[SirArthur]

Hitler wasn't elected, his party had a minority winning, which he turned into an absolute winning. But himself, running to President, lost the elections.
Mussolini was indeed elected, and looking at Italy today, he would probably win the elections again, at least the elected parties doesn't fall too much apart of him.

But this isn't the question, the question is about defining an ideology. Have a specific and strict sense of what we can call Fascism (ideology) or fascism (insult).

Democracy has its weaknesses - candidate suppression, vote suppression, plain and old rig and so on - , actually, like sir Winston Churchill, I don't like it, I accept it because I can't think of nothing better. If you put a bunch of burglars voting the only thing they would be voting about will be on ways to rob their victims.

I think of Fascism more as the opposition of Liberalism (European Liberalism, not be confused with US flavor), rather than communism. The only way to have communism as you portrait it is by direct democracy, otherwise as long as you've a communist leader, you no longer have any communism, but a red flavor of Fascism.

[Moloch]

I think of Fascism more as the opposition of Liberalism (European Liberalism, not be confused with US flavor), rather than communism.

Good thing it doesn't matter what you "think" Fascism should mean... fascism has a definition, and it is not what you "think" it is

The only way to have communism as you portrait it is by direct democracy, otherwise as long as you've a communist leader, you no longer have any communism, but a red flavor of Fascism.

I don't understand how you can say an elected communist leader is fascist, but an elected republic/democratic leader is not... that makes no sense at all... you are assuming that an elected communist leader will become a dictator, but that couldn't happen with a 'democracy'?  Germany is a democracy and they gave us Hitler... Italy gave us Mussolini... these are not communist countries, quite the opposite

And again... fascism is NOT "red flavor" (assuming you meant red as in Russian/communist, not red as in right-wing/republican)... fascism is extreme right-wing, not left... quit trying to change the definition of words to suit your opinion/bigotry

[SirArthur]

Here comes again the meaningless chart... 

As long as you have a communist leader you've a "primum inter pares", one whose decisions count more than the others... Or none of your utopian communism if you will.

As for the other entry, again is "fascism is all bad I can think of", or in other words, a mere insult.

[Moloch]

As long as you have a communist leader you've a "primum inter pares", one whose decisions count more than the others... Or none of your utopian communism if you will.

I'll assume you mean "primus inter pares", first among equals; the senior or representative member of a group

Are you trying to say that's its bad for communism to have someone in charge?  How is this any different from any other form of government?

I really don't even understand what you are trying to say here... communist leaders are bad, but it's ok for any other country to have a leader?

[SirArthur]

This keeps derailing to off-topic...

You became obsessed when I said communism and fascism overlaps on so many ways, that came to defend communism with your "-0 is not 0" meaningless chart and now keep trying to defend your utopia.

Even if it's not, per definition, wrong for communism to have leaders, not even they're bad or good, it however means the end for your "egalitarian society" as that one is over the others. All you can use is the "tu quoque" (you too) argument, but what's the point of that argument? I'm not against leadership, but I'm not also talking about "power to the people" then sit a guy over them all and pretend it's indeed "power to the people", am I?

Back on topic, here's what I believe (and don't come again with the "fascism has a definition", because it doesn't and this discussion has going around for ages, there's no "Fascist Mein Kampf" describing it), are core parts of Fascism:

• Totalitarianism and Authoritarianism, obvious points
• Centralization of everything on the State (All with the state, all on the state, nothing out of the state, nothing against the state)
• Lack of awareness of the limits of law; means the fascist assumes it can legislate about everything on everyone's life, this includes even how he must wipe himself.
• No space for relativism, everything is absolutely right or wrong, as the law covers or aim to cover everything, no grey area and no safezone to anyone.
• Unlike Nazism or Communism, Fascism is diffuse, it can bend and twist to fit the context or humor of its dictator - this is due to have no Manifesto or Mein Kampf

The other components, such as state police, removal of opponents and so on are already included on Authoritarianism.

[bluefirecorp_]

So, normally, you get fascism with authoritarianism.



It looks like national communism and totalitarianism are about the same with fascism in terms of authoritarian.

National socialism is as bad as traditionalism are nearly as bad as fascism, but some how slightly better? I'm pretty sure Russia is a semi-implementation of national socialism.

Socialism and ultra-capitalism are again; I can't think of any implementations of ultra-capitalism? Maybe Saudi Arabia or somewhere where rights are limited and money buys everything. Socialism has a few states, like Cuba, I think.

--

In reality, it just depends on how free you think individuals should be and how resources are planned and distributed. Chaotic distribution under capitalism made sense because humans were the best calculators a hundred years ago. Now-a-days, computers are pretty clever. However, with state control comes great powers for abuse, which is why there needs to accountability and lots of liberties.

I personally favor anarcho-syndicalism in the future (assuming post-scarcity).

[SirArthur]

Curious compass.
What are the X axis based on?
Usually they are the economic freedom, but that one sounds a bit of.

[bluefirecorp_]

Curious compass.
What are the X axis based on?
Usually they are the economic freedom, but that one sounds a bit of.

x is economic control; left is state control, right is individual control.

State control makes a lot of sense in the modern age, as we should be able to automate most means of production, so it makes sense that all people own part of the automation infrastructure. Not to mention, because state control, place's like China have been able to make actual headway against climate change.

The y axis is individual / personal freedom.

[SirArthur]

Yes, that's the more common one.

In the 1st one however, 17, 19 and 20 and 10, 13 and 11 are paradoxes.
This due to the relative weight of economic to personal freedoms, on the first group you can do whatever you want with your money but you can't do anything without prior state authorization, to the opposite end you can do anything with your personal life but you can't control your money.
One is like giving you money to go to Disneyland, but close its gates, the other is like keep Disneyland open but don't let you've money for the entry ticket.

[coins4commies]

Curious compass.
What are the X axis based on?
Usually they are the economic freedom, but that one sounds a bit of.

x is economic control; left is state control, right is individual control.

Its very important to get this part right.

The X axis is economic cooperation (left) vs economic competition (right).


When you say state control, you are talking about the y axis.  

This is how so many people conflate the bottom left with the top left.  They are extremely different.  Top left is state-forced collectivism while the bottom left is voluntary cooperation (communes).  Keep in mind that the very bottom has no state regardless of whether or not you are on the right or the left. 

[SirArthur]

By "economic cooperation", you mean "you work I eat and we call it cooperation"... 

[Moloch]

Even if it's not, per definition, wrong for communism to have leaders, not even they're bad or good, it however means the end for your "egalitarian society" as that one is over the others.

So... you think communism means a society has to be 100% democratic, with no leader?  Because this is what you keep describing...  you are describing an absolute democracy not communism... then you try to call it fascism on top of being fully democratic with no leader (confusing as fuck when you don't understand what these words mean)

Then you want to accuse me of nonsense like "tu quoque"... I never made any such claim... you are the one who made a claim that communism isn't supposed to have a leader... I simply disagree with your bogus claim

Stop trolling with contradictory nonsense

[SirArthur]

You are a bit slow, aren't you?

For your utopia to work your system has to have no leader, otherwise your utopia is flawed as at least one has more rights than the other...

It doesn't mean Communism can't have leaders, it means it just doesn't work.

[Moloch]

You are a bit slow, aren't you?

For your utopia to work your system has to have no leader, otherwise your utopia is flawed as at least one has more rights than the other...

Insults will get you nowhere... anyone reading it will lose confidence in you if begin your post with an Ad-Hominem attack

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

Who said anything about utopia?

Stop attacking a Straw-Man... that's an obvious logical fallacy buddy... do some research man

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or an understanding of both sides of the issue.

[SirArthur]

You're moving towards nowhere in defense of Communism, Communism is considered by all means an Utopia - never worked and, most likely, never will.
At the same time you seam to be having some difficulties on understand the reasons, not an insult.
Just your ideal system doesn't work, sorry for that.

When you say something like "but your system also have leaders", assuming you know my political position. Yes it does, but my system doesn't aim to make everyone equal.
Likewise, you can be far right and a speculator, but not far left and a speculator. It's about coherence.

[coin8coin8]

I actually have different views on communism.
The communism put forward by Marx was indeed a perfect society. Everyone was distributed according to work, there was no exploitation, and the distribution of social wealth was more fair.
It seems perfect, but in fact, this is a utopia and never achieve.

Marx proposed a near-perfect system from the perspective of economics, but our society is not entirely composed of the economy, it also includes people.
And Marx also lacks practical steps on how to achieve communism. Therefore, communism has gradually evolved into the totalitarianism we have seen, and this is not true communism.
Just because communism is practiced by someone (a party), it will eventually lead to a high concentration of power, and once power is highly concentrated, the masters of power will inevitably breed greed and corruption, and forget their original goals. When you control infinite power, everything that power masters do has only one purpose, using power to serve selves.
This is a little different from fascism. After all, fascism is still serving the economy, but communism（Stalinism / Maoism） is only serving selves, without considering anything else.
So under fascism, although you have lost your freedom, at least you life will not be so bad. And under communism（Stalinism / Maoism）, you not only lose your freedom, but your quality of life will also drop dramatically.

The so-called socialist countries you see now, such as China, Vietnam and other countries, are a combination of political totalitarianism + economic capitalism, not pure socialism.
I don't know how to name their current system. If you look at the definition of socialism, you will find that their current system is different from socialism, maybe they can be named by semi-socialist semi-capitalistism.
These countries are the products of improvement after the failure of the communist line. They are somewhat similar to the constitutional monarchy that was reformed after the failure of the Republican system. At present, North Korea seems to have this trend, but the products of this improvement still have major flaws. In fact, in these countries. You will find that the contradiction between the state enterprise and the private enterprise can never be reconciled. state enterprises are always trying to annex well-developed private companies.
And the fascism you are searching will be possible to resurrect in these countries. When large state-owned enterprises control the absolute lifeline of the national economy and try to promote their economic hegemony globally, fascism will be resurrected.