Rumor that Bitmain is going belly up! can't pay its chip builder!

[jstefanop]

I'm pretty sure Bitcoin was not designed to be a charity case. If it were I presume the idea would've been binned instantly as hopelessly naive. It was always going to be ravaged if it requires good will. There isn't very much of that in the world, even more so when it comes to money.

It's about boxing and pointing self interest towards the benefit of something bigger. That requires profit and plenty of it.

Charity and a decentralized distribution system are not the same.

Part of Bitcoins current issue, and general adoption issue is that fact that the barrier of entry for new adopters is just too high, and nearly all new coins issued are going to a centralized cartel and dumped straight onto exchanges by a select few industrial miners.

You tell me what the Bitcoin ecosystem would look like if there were 10 or even 100 million home miners mining at 1TH/s each, instead of 10,000 farm miners each circle jerking each other and dumping their coins.

You'd have a true user base engaged at the base level, with a wide distribution of coins and a real market for real businesses to adopt the currency, and the price would reflect that.

[QuintLeo]

I get kinda sad when I see some old timers on here talking about mining in terms of profitability. Mining was never about profits...

For most of us, mining has ALWAYS been about profits.
The majority of miners (and probably the LARGE majority of us) can't AFFORD to mine if we're LOSING MONEY at it.

[jstefanop]

For most of us, mining has ALWAYS been about profits.
The majority of miners (and probably the LARGE majority of us) can't AFFORD to mine if we're LOSING MONEY at it.

Your only "losing" money if your comparing it to fiat and mining on a large scale. The only case ill agree with you is when you can buy any crypto for less than its electricity cost

For me bear markets are the most fun, because as far as I'm concerned this is the MOST profitable time for me (i.e. I get to pick up more coins for the same equipment than a few months ago).

I could care less what greedy traders, manipulators, and fraudsters in the industry think the price is worth, all I care is that I have more bitcoins than yesterday.

Ill cherish the day when there are 10's of millions mining bitcoin on their 100 watt machines, and could care less what what it costs to mine since a single light bulb wont make a dent in their power bill, and this causes all centralized mining farms to go belly up.

THATS the true vision of Bitcoin, and anyone that disagrees does not get it.

[fanatic26_]

Ill cherish the day when there are 10's of millions mining bitcoin on their 100 watt machines, and could care less what what it costs to mine since a single light bulb wont make a dent in their power bill, and this causes all centralized mining farms to go belly up.

THATS the true vision of Bitcoin, and anyone that disagrees does not get it.

You sound pretty delusional if you ever think this is going to happen. Where there is profit to be made, people will turn up to make that profit. It is incredibly naive to think you can put the genie back into the bottle at this point.

[sidehack]

I'll disagree that mining without considering profit is the end-all be-all, but also with the point that industrial miner cartels are hosing things for the rest of us. The current environment is proof of how much power a few specific individuals have and that is far from healthy.

It's going to be really interesting in a few more halvings when the block reward starts getting dwarfed by transaction fees. If the currency isn't widely used as a currency by that point it won't be sustainable and the current profitability model for industrial miners dependent on block rewards will go out the window.

I would also like to see a 100W miner in every home, and not just because jstefanop and I are the only ones still building them. If this thing is gonna work, it needs to have a wide-spread acceptance and understanding and a base less susceptible to corruption and manipulation.

[mikeywith]

Your only "losing" money if your comparing it to fiat and mining on a large scale. The only case ill agree with you is when you can buy any crypto for less than its electricity cost...

well isn't this the reason why people stop mining? when you have to pay more bills than what you earn in FIAT then it would make more sense to buy bitcoin directly,mining at break even is also a loss , since you are consuming a product that has a very  limited -life span ( both technically and economically) while you can just sell it and buy bitcoin instead.

anyone mining at a loss or break even could be categorized as one of these ( at least in my opinion)

1-They believe in BTC more than they believe in their wives, the are simply mining to satisfy a mysterious genius "Japanese" person's Vision(very RARE)
2- They want to get bitcoin without having to go through banks and KYC B.s  , aka a secret fund ( very a few)
3- They think the price of bitcoin will recover before they have to pay their bills or at least not before the point where they can't afford it ( not many )
4- some people are just stupid ! ( many )

[jstefanop]

well isn't this the reason why people stop mining? when you have to pay more bills than what you earn in FIAT then it would make more sense to buy bitcoin directly,mining at break even is also a loss , since you are consuming a product that has a very  limited -life span ( both technically and economically) while you can just sell it and buy bitcoin instead.

anyone mining at a loss or break even could be categorized as one of these ( at least in my opinion)

1-They believe in BTC more than they believe in their wives, the are simply mining to satisfy a mysterious genius "Japanese" person's Vision(very RARE)
2- They want to get bitcoin without having to go through banks and KYC B.s  , aka a secret fund ( very a few)
3- They think the price of bitcoin will recover before they have to pay their bills or at least not before the point where they can't afford it ( not many )
4- some people are just stupid ! ( many )

Sure people called lots of things stupid when they couldn't understand the true nature and vision of what they playing with...definitely not calling them stupid now

You can say holding on to the fundamentals of the technology naive all you want, but thats my creed and thats what I go by and why its worth the effort I put into this. Just like people put value on Bitcoin itself, there is more "value" to mining than the pure bitcoin you get out of it.

But alas you are right most people ARE stupid but not in the way you think. Its kind of the same reason why democracy is failing today because people dont find the incentive or profit to go "vote".

[lightfoot]

You know you're a miner when it's -5c outside and your AC is running.....

[philipma1957]

Interesting to me to hear from a large guy like fanatic26.

I am not going to get to go to his level of 20mw at 2cents .(his claim) not mine.

I consulted on a 100mw build that was to act as a load leveler for 5 power plants.

Got a price just under 4cents.

There is a true need for big farms that help to stabilize power plants usage.

That is big scale and needs to exist.  But while there is really and truly a demand for mining in the manner I just mentioned we need to make demand for coin. If you think of every pow coin as a way to burn excess power for power plants then any one will do.

Con-ed
Pse&g
Or any major power company does not care what coin the farm they cut a deal with mines.

So while they have a need to cut a deal with a farm they have zero incentive what coinis mined.

That’s why bitmain and other asic builders went out and wiped out lots of algos with many different miners.

This to me is classic clear cut forestry vs forest management.

Based on humanity’s past record the forest will be cleared not managed.

The question is wtf is bitmain up to?
Or how much power does bitmain really have here?

One more thing will mr trump and the USA government go after any and all bitmain executives.

They just used Canada to grab the cfo of huawei.  Hold her and want to try her in the USA and sentence her to 30 freaking years.  The charge is fraud and helping Iran beat the boycott embargoes.

So. Seems to me. USA may look to lock up bitmain execs for helping Iran do the same.


Note it is all speculation but a lot is happening behind the curtain.

[Exoskeleton]

You know you're a miner when it's -5c outside and your AC is running.....

I didn't think anyone was using AC to mine. Particularly in that cold of a temperature. You just up the airflow and use the ambient air from outside to cool everything. Even in the summer, just with even more airflow.

[philipma1957]

I didn't think anyone was using AC to mine. Particularly in that cold of a temperature. You just up the airflow and use the ambient air from outside to cool everything. Even in the summer, just with even more airflow.

maybe he was joking

[DaCryptoRaccoon]

Charity and a decentralized distribution system are not the same.

Part of Bitcoins current issue, and general adoption issue is that fact that the barrier of entry for new adopters is just too high, and nearly all new coins issued are going to a centralized cartel and dumped straight onto exchanges by a select few industrial miners.

You tell me what the Bitcoin ecosystem would look like if there were 10 or even 100 million home miners mining at 1TH/s each, instead of 10,000 farm miners each circle jerking each other and dumping their coins.

You'd have a true user base engaged at the base level, with a wide distribution of coins and a real market for real businesses to adopt the currency, and the price would reflect that.

If I had merits I would send you a bunch.

I fully agree with you I also wonder what the difficulty would be like now too if we had not seen farms and pools and had kept mining simple and for home miners.

When people can't "participate" it pushed people away from a system what bitcoin needed was more user adoption but like already said that route is now no longer a viable one for newcomers.

[Norm MacDonald]

Use and mass adoption don't come from mining. It comes from utility and "use cases" ( adoption as a payment option by Amazon) being a solution to existing problems. BTC is unable to scale, plain and simple. It is a brilliant and essential protocol, but has no ability to grow and scale. It hasn't changed one iota in many years. The internet achieved the same "stall" early on, and we are still "early on". If and when BTC becomes massively scaleable, then and only then will it be massively adopted. IE; Lightning Network or similar solutions the this dinosaur. Right now it is still just a store of value. Subject to the same fluctuations as any other store of value such as Gold or Silver. Once it becomes transactionally viable, you'll see a whole new world. Until then people will keep blaming boogie men, such as "short sellers and miners".

[sidehack]

You'll have to explain why it's not "transactionally viable", given that the network is literally a store of transactions.

Volatility can be blamed on boogeymen, since they're the only ones who profit from exploiting that kind of thing, and volatility prevents widespread utility. The problem with reduced utility is a self-fulfilling prophecy. People see a thing to be exploited, make it unstable, and there's no mass adoption. Because there's no mass adoption, it remains unstable and exploitable. It's only seen as "a store of value" because the ones who use it that way, by continuing to use it that way, prevent it from being used as intended.

[lightfoot]

maybe he was joking

To an extent. Technically this was supposed to go to WO, but for some reason I posted it here. That said, it does point out another reason to mine: Free heat. I could run a space heater in the upstairs room, but instead run miners to keep the top floor warm. The bitcoins offset the heat bill and their drone acts as an excellent white noise generator.

The AC unit kicks on when the room temp goes over 75F. This is kind of funny when it's 20F outside, and the unit is basically free cooling from the outside to inside.

In the summer the difference in miner temps between 75 degree AC cooled air and 100 degree outside air is quite substantial. For longest life IMO it's best to keep the air inlet temps below 80 or so.

[minefarmbuy]

This is really getting off topic now isn't it? Bitcoin is a currency, a store of value. The freedom is that you're sovereign to do what you wish with it like any other money. The great thing is that it's yours if you hold your keys. As far as mining for profit, I do and I don't. I'll be excited for the day when there is no reference to a fiat market.   

Bitmain looks like they're taking notes and releasing more gear. All said and done the S11 should have been release earlier this year Q2. They may be better off, then their fun with altcoins really is what killed them anyway. That and budgeting for a market/demand at 20k. I suppose my philosophy is about establishing roots, not growing branches. Leaves, flowers, fruits will come if you're able to sustain them.

[Norm MacDonald]

You'll have to explain why it's not "transactionally viable", given that the network is literally a store of transactions.

Volatility can be blamed on boogeymen, since they're the only ones who profit from exploiting that kind of thing, and volatility prevents widespread utility. The problem with reduced utility is a self-fulfilling prophecy. People see a thing to be exploited, make it unstable, and there's no mass adoption. Because there's no mass adoption, it remains unstable and exploitable. It's only seen as "a store of value" because the ones who use it that way, by continuing to use it that way, prevent it from being used as intended.

Yes it is a store of transactions.  But it is slow and archaic and incapable of competing with the "Kings" of the space. Paypal, Visa, Master Card etc. Once activity gets too voluminous and the network overwhelmed, and it doesn't take much. It slows to a crawl and Tx fees become prohibitive. They even get very unfair as we've all seen and prioritize preference and order of block verification by amount of payment. To your point of "volatility". I would disagree in part. In fairness, BTC's market cap and available supply make it susceptible to wild swings in price. This can happen on the "long" side and the "short side" of the market. It's long been a bane of newer technologies to suffer these influences. It's human nature to try and find someone or something to blame. It's just growing pains. a natural process of "price discovery". BTC had no business being valued at $19,000 just as it has no business being valued at $2,500.00. When scaling solutions become the norm, we will all cheer and jump for joy as the existing "shorts" in the market get their heads ripped off. Just as the "wrong longs" got their heads ripped off at the highs.

Scaling to appropriate and competitive levels by today's standards means at least 1 million transactions per second capability. LN can do this once it's adopted and implemented (or something similar). This is what I mean by "transactionally viable".

[QuintLeo]

Your only "losing" money if your comparing it to fiat and mining on a large scale.

No, I'm losing money if my income from mining is less than what I have to pay to do the mining.
You are confusing "investment" and "mining" - and I don't have the LUXURY of just hanging onto my mined cryptocoin as an investment, I have bills to pay and no other income source to pay them with.

[minefarmbuy]

No, I'm losing money if my income from mining is less than what I have to pay to do the mining.
You are confusing "investment" and "mining" - and I don't have the LUXURY of just hanging onto my mined cryptocoin as an investment, I have bills to pay and no other income source to pay them with.

It's true you're losing money. What most don't see is the benefit to mining at lower diff if your time preference is low or lower or lowest. Or simply have really cheap power. There is no point for most to mine if there isn't profit. Fact. Power down now. It's understandable, is sound, is good business. If you aren't equipped to weather the storm as a business or hobbyist, power down. Really very simple. The beauty of bitcoin is in the simplicity.

People want to debate about a death spiral. Not happening. Mass computation. Not happening. You want to protect the network, run a full validating node with some hash on it.

Bitmain got greedy, which is understandable actually. Is what people expect if you're not a steward. Hash means nothing if consensus doesn't follow. And consensus is more than just running software in the world.

[stompix]

Back to bitmain and their finance, they've started a cloud mining business.
The topic got trashed here so I'm not going to name the website or put links to it but for a buyer, it was a pretty bad investment even with the so-called 30% off.

For me is just an attempt to grab more cash as fast as they can and deal with the payments later (if any) as their ToS is a joke.

Are they seriously sinking, and the rumors about loses are not just rumors anymore? Guess will find out once they will have to reveal the financial situation for Q3 and Q4, if they are going to do it.